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**Bowser** · 04-03-2022, 06:57 PM

Maybe it's overkill having a thread for this, but meh.

Jamie · 08-10-2023, 12:53 AM

How exactly is Uhura a Mary Sue? Half the characters in Star Trek are described as some type of prodigy or genius, I fail to see what they've done with Uhura to elevate her beyond that.

The only thing anyone said specifically is Pike blowing up the refinery, but that's not an instance of writing Uhura to be super-competent, it's writing Pike to be an idiot. And no, that is not the same thing. It's not in service of building up Uhura, it's in service of plot convenience. It's lazy writing trying to ratchet up the stakes.

Really there were a bunch of TNG episodes similar to this. Data and the Exocomps and Wesley's nanites, off the top of my head. But the TNG version of this episode would have some asshole in charge of the refinery who insists they must continue in spite of (let's say) Deanna visions. In the end Picard would side with Deanna, and the asshole would either see the error of his ways or die trying to turn the refinery on. Then there would be a Captain's Log where Picard says the refinery is being disassembled and Starfleet is sending a team to establish communication with the lifeforms.

Unfortunately modern Trek needs explosions in every episode, so we get "WE CAN'T TURN IT OFF! I DON'T KNOW WHY, STOP ASKING QUESTIONS! WE MUST DESTROY IT RIGHT NOW!".

BigBeauford · 08-10-2023, 07:18 AM

Just watched the cross-over episode. Is it safe to say that all the dudes in lower decks are bumbling effeminate pussies? My god would that get old.

gh4chiefs · 08-10-2023, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod

I'm quite sure I know what I want, and I've been fairly clear about it. I want more of the things that made me actually like Star Trek. More exploration. More space battles. A good recurring villain would be nice. What I need less of is Mary Sue communications officers, Vulcan love triangles and ****ing singing.

It really shouldn't be that hard should it? And dummy me thought we were going to get that (or a reasonable facsimile thereof.) But I should have known better so that's on me.

I had a guy express an opinion to me the other day that in hindsight is kind of like "Well DUH" but I hadn't really focussed on it. He said these franchises like Star Trek and Star Wars (and maybe Indiana Jones?) are being run by people that weren't long time fans of these franchises. Hell they probably weren't even around when they started, 1966 for ST, 1977 (I think) for Star Wars. So they don't get "More exploration. More space battles." etc. Instead what they know is "Mary Sue." It's just how it is now.

Today is Thursday and i guess the final episode of Season 2 is now released and I keep trying to find a reason to even watch it. I realize I've been watching out of habit, mainly because it has the name Star Trek, and it has the Enterprise and Spock.

I've been reflecting upon this discussion and the musical episode and I realize the reason I don't want to watch it is because I can no longer take it serious as a Star Trek show. For the first time in my 50+ years of ST fandom I actually felt embarrassment for something I saw on screen called Star Trek. Hell if I remember correctly MAD Magazine did a parody of Star Trek one time making it a musical. And that's what SNW is for me, a parody of Star Trek.

listopencil · 08-10-2023, 07:54 AM

OK, hell yes. That's more like it.

KC_Connection · 08-10-2023, 08:24 AM

I don’t want space battles; I want good TV. And this show has produced plenty of that through two seasons now.

Discuss Thrower · 08-10-2023, 10:32 AM

They dropped the ball big time by not having a junior doctor under M'Benga who is skilled, witty and maybe even handsome. Last name McCoy.

Have him hang around until an episode like this finale for S2 only to reveal Dr. McCoy's first name is Henry McCoy and *blam* kill him off.

You get the audience to think he's Bones for a season and rug pull 'em to remind everyone space is dangerous.

Frazod · 08-10-2023, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by listopencil

OK, hell yes. That's more like it.

Very much so. Too bad we have to wait a year for the conclusion. Of course, if they hadn't done a throwaway episode last week.....

lawrenceRaider · 08-10-2023, 07:41 PM

Finished up fantastically.

Leaving us hanging like that. Damn.

gh4chiefs · 08-10-2023, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod

Very much so. Too bad we have to wait a year for the conclusion. Of course, if they hadn't done a throwaway episode last week.....

Well . . . I had pretty much decided to give up on it, but if you like the episode, based on your prior comments, I'm guessing I would like it too. But since it's a cliffhanger, maybe I'll wait until the next season comes out. That will give me more time to get the shit from last week out of my mind.

**Bowser** · 08-10-2023, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by listopencil

OK, hell yes. That's more like it.

Yeah it was. The whole episode was pretty well pitch perfect.

And that wasn't quite Riker's "Mr. Worf.......fire" moment, but it was a really good cliffhanger.

listopencil · 08-10-2023, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod

Very much so. Too bad we have to wait a year for the conclusion. Of course, if they hadn't done a throwaway episode last week.....

That's exactly the thing. I've watched shows with (I feel) minimal episodes per season and enjoyed them because each episode was great and the whole season was tight. It's like a concentrated drug piped into your veins and it's a memorable ride. If we're getting ten per season with long waits between seasons then tighten this shit up.

KC_Connection · 08-11-2023, 11:45 PM

So I’m guessing we won’t hear much complaining about that one. Wasn’t quite as good as last year’s finale but they saved the best episode of the season for the last one just like S1.

Given the strikes, it could also be quite some time until they resolve that cliffhanger. For a show as good as this one, though, I’m willing to wait.

Now that we have concluded S2, I think there’s an argument these are the best first two seasons of any Trek series ever and certainly at least since TOS itself (outside of a few standout episodes, TNG and DS9 didn’t start really going until S3 in each case).

Frazod · 08-12-2023, 12:12 PM

Much like many of the characters, the Gorn have been supersized. I'm sure I said it before, but how in the hell did the lumbering brute from TOS turn into a combination of Alien/Predator? I understand the need to update the 60s stuff for modern audiences, but that absolutely shits all over established canon. Kirk wouldn't have lasted a minute against one of those things with no weapons or armor. Hell, Mike Tyson in his prime wouldn't have lasted a minute against one.

I hope they'll fix this somehow (perhaps as Gorns get older they become bulky and slow and lose their ten foot long whiplash murder tails), but I doubt it.

I realize that I don't represent SNW's intended audience (or any modern show's intended audience, for that matter) but goddamn, they really took this one too far. I wish they'd simply made them a brand new species. I'd have had zero problems with that.

KC_Connection · 08-12-2023, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod

Much like many of the characters, the Gorn have been supersized. I'm sure I said it before, but how in the hell did the lumbering brute from TOS turn into a combination of Alien/Predator? I understand the need to update the 60s stuff for modern audiences, but that absolutely shits all over established canon. Kirk wouldn't have lasted a minute against one of those things with no weapons or armor. Hell, Mike Tyson in his prime wouldn't have lasted a minute against one.

I hope they'll fix this somehow (perhaps as Gorns get older they become bulky and slow and lose their ten foot long whiplash murder tails), but I doubt it.

I realize that I don't represent SNW's intended audience (or any modern show's intended audience, for that matter) but goddamn, they really took this one too far. I wish they'd simply made them a brand new species. I'd have had zero problems with that.

This was an alien on TOS. Yes, I think they need to update the 60s stuff for modern audiences.

Frazod · 08-12-2023, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

This was an alien on TOS. Yes, I think they need to update the 60s stuff for modern audiences.

Sometimes I forget how you love to argue just for the sake of arguing.

"Updating the 60s stuff" and "supersizing" aren't the same thing. Redesigning the bridge is updating. Turning a slow, hulking brute into a velociraptor that infects its victims with its larvae is supersizing.

04-03-2022, 06:57 PM
Bowser sorta mod-ish Bowser's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: KC North	Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Maybe it's overkill having a thread for this, but meh.
Posts: 101,199

08-10-2023, 12:53 AM	#346
Jamie Veteran Jamie's Avatar Join Date: Mar 2002	How exactly is Uhura a Mary Sue? Half the characters in Star Trek are described as some type of prodigy or genius, I fail to see what they've done with Uhura to elevate her beyond that. The only thing anyone said specifically is Pike blowing up the refinery, but that's not an instance of writing Uhura to be super-competent, it's writing Pike to be an idiot. And no, that is not the same thing. It's not in service of building up Uhura, it's in service of plot convenience. It's lazy writing trying to ratchet up the stakes. Really there were a bunch of TNG episodes similar to this. Data and the Exocomps and Wesley's nanites, off the top of my head. But the TNG version of this episode would have some asshole in charge of the refinery who insists they must continue in spite of (let's say) Deanna visions. In the end Picard would side with Deanna, and the asshole would either see the error of his ways or die trying to turn the refinery on. Then there would be a Captain's Log where Picard says the refinery is being disassembled and Starfleet is sending a team to establish communication with the lifeforms. Unfortunately modern Trek needs explosions in every episode, so we get "WE CAN'T TURN IT OFF! I DON'T KNOW WHY, STOP ASKING QUESTIONS! WE MUST DESTROY IT RIGHT NOW!".
Posts: 1,403	1 1

08-10-2023, 07:18 AM	#347
BigBeauford MVP BigBeauford's Avatar Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Lenexa, KS	Just watched the cross-over episode. Is it safe to say that all the dudes in lower decks are bumbling effeminate pussies? My god would that get old.
Posts: 14,404	2 0

08-10-2023, 07:54 AM	#349
listopencil Immanentize The Eschaton listopencil's Avatar Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In Partibus Infidelium	OK, hell yes. That's more like it.
Posts: 55,999	1 0

08-10-2023, 08:24 AM	#350
KC_Connection Perpetual Mediocrity KC_Connection's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2006	I don’t want space battles; I want good TV. And this show has produced plenty of that through two seasons now.
Posts: 49,313

08-10-2023, 10:32 AM	#351
Discuss Thrower "You like to drink?" Discuss Thrower's Avatar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: "I like to drink."	They dropped the ball big time by not having a junior doctor under M'Benga who is skilled, witty and maybe even handsome. Last name McCoy. Have him hang around until an episode like this finale for S2 only to reveal Dr. McCoy's first name is Henry McCoy and blam kill him off. You get the audience to think he's Bones for a season and rug pull 'em to remind everyone space is dangerous.
Posts: 42,963	1 0

08-10-2023, 07:41 PM	#353
lawrenceRaider Here We Go Again lawrenceRaider's Avatar Join Date: May 2002	Finished up fantastically. Leaving us hanging like that. Damn.
Posts: 14,517

08-11-2023, 11:45 PM	#357
KC_Connection Perpetual Mediocrity KC_Connection's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2006	So I’m guessing we won’t hear much complaining about that one. Wasn’t quite as good as last year’s finale but they saved the best episode of the season for the last one just like S1. Given the strikes, it could also be quite some time until they resolve that cliffhanger. For a show as good as this one, though, I’m willing to wait. Now that we have concluded S2, I think there’s an argument these are the best first two seasons of any Trek series ever and certainly at least since TOS itself (outside of a few standout episodes, TNG and DS9 didn’t start really going until S3 in each case).
Posts: 49,313

08-12-2023, 12:12 PM	#358
Frazod WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS Frazod's Avatar Join Date: Aug 2000	Much like many of the characters, the Gorn have been supersized. I'm sure I said it before, but how in the hell did the lumbering brute from TOS turn into a combination of Alien/Predator? I understand the need to update the 60s stuff for modern audiences, but that absolutely shits all over established canon. Kirk wouldn't have lasted a minute against one of those things with no weapons or armor. Hell, Mike Tyson in his prime wouldn't have lasted a minute against one. I hope they'll fix this somehow (perhaps as Gorns get older they become bulky and slow and lose their ten foot long whiplash murder tails), but I doubt it. I realize that I don't represent SNW's intended audience (or any modern show's intended audience, for that matter) but goddamn, they really took this one too far. I wish they'd simply made them a brand new species. I'd have had zero problems with that.
Posts: 119,541	3 0