WR Room?

[Couch-Potato]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Dude. You have no idea what you're talking about.

MVS is the same player as Mecole? They have no attributes in common at all except for speed. That's it. Nothing else in common whatsoever.

Just stop.

They're both 3rd option speed guys that specialize in running deep routes to stretch the defense. Stat lines over the years are nearly identical. No?

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Couch-Potato

They're both 3rd option speed guys that specialize in running deep routes to stretch the defense. Stat lines over the years are nearly identical. No?

They’re both speed guys but are still different players. Valses-Scantling isn’t as quick or shifty as Hardman. They’re not going to use him on all the horizontal stuff, the end arounds, the shallow crosses, etc. that Hardman does (that Hill used to do).

Valses-Scantling is going to be an intermediate and vertical route runner. Hardman is going to be more of a short route runner.

[Couch-Potato]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

They’re both speed guys but are still different players. Valses-Scantling isn’t as quick or shifty as Hardman. They’re not going to use him on all the horizontal stuff, the end arounds, the shallow crosses, etc. that Hardman does (that Hill used to do).

Valses-Scantling is going to be an intermediate and vertical route runner. Hardman is going to be more of a short route runner.

Ok, that's a fair assessment and truth be told I don't really have anything against Hardman, I just haven't seen much out of him. I also wonder if Moore might end up being better at "all the horizontal stuff, the end arounds, the shallow crosses, etc. that Hardman does (that Hill used to do)" making Hardman expendable before next season.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Couch-Potato

They're both 3rd option speed guys that specialize in running deep routes to stretch the defense. Stat lines over the years are nearly identical. No?

They're not similar players at all.

Hardman has more twitch and immediate burst than MVS, who's more of a build up guy. MVS is physical at the catch point but for a guy with his speed isn't a very good YAC guy.

Those underneath routes and bubble screens aren't going to be nearly as effective with MVS as they are with Hardman.

And for all the 'well he needs gimmicks to get yards' stuff - who gives a shit? Between the 20s, yards are yards. And those 'gimmicks' present something else opposing DCs have to think about and prepare for. Moreover, Hardman is a guy who's extremely dangerous on drag routes and even seam routes when give the opportunity.

Duncan said it well - they're both deep threats, but they're complementary deep threats. They don't get there in the same way. Being a 'deep threat' WR isn't just about being a guy that can run a 9 route; that's just way too basic.

And again, Hardman's value is as much about depth as anything. This team doesn't have the bodies it needs to run a full playbook without Hardman. Any drive that isn't over in 5 snaps will require you to basically scrap your 11 personnel by the time you get to the other half of the field because you don't have the WR rotation you need to keep sending them.

I think folks REALLY underestimate the physical toll that simply running routes takes on guys who aren't Tyreek Hill. It's goddamn exhausting. And if it isn't, then you're running at 85-90% and are less effective for it.

If you want to be able to have 3 guys you can send out there at top speed snap after snap after snap, you've gotta have 4 guys you can rotate. If you don't, you're going to struggle.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

They're not similar players at all.

Hardman has more twitch and immediate burst than MVS, who's more of a build up guy. MVS is physical at the catch point but for a guy with his speed isn't a very good YAC guy.

Those underneath routes and bubble screens aren't going to be nearly as effective with MVS as they are with Hardman.

And for all the 'well he needs gimmicks to get yards' stuff - who gives a shit? Between the 20s, yards are yards. And those 'gimmicks' present something else opposing DCs have to think about and prepare for. Moreover, Hardman is a guy who's extremely dangerous on drag routes and even seam routes when give the opportunity.

Duncan said it well - they're both deep threats, but they're complementary deep threats. They don't get there in the same way. Being a 'deep threat' WR isn't just about being a guy that can run a 9 route; that's just way too basic.

And again, Hardman's value is as much about depth as anything. This team doesn't have the bodies it needs to run a full playbook without Hardman. Any drive that isn't over in 5 snaps will require you to basically scrap your 11 personnel by the time you get to the other half of the field because you don't have the WR rotation you need to keep sending them.

I think folks REALLY underestimate the physical toll that simply running routes takes on guys who aren't Tyreek Hill. It's goddamn exhausting. And if it isn't, then you're running at 85-90% and are less effective for it.

If you want to be able to have 3 guys you can send out there at top speed snap after snap after snap, you've gotta have 4 guys you can rotate. If you don't, you're going to struggle.

^ which is why Andy Reid always wants his WR to be versatile enough to run routes from anywhere. Because he uses them interchangeably and has them run the same route concepts from inside or outside, depending on the matchup and who he is trying to exploit.

Which is why rookie WR often take longer to acclimate.

[RunKC]

Listening to Veach on Florio’s pod…

He made an interesting point when asked about the Tyreek trade. He said they had problems even before that when Sammy was gone bc he helped Tyreek and Kelce simply due to his presence, especially when he was “on”.

It’s pretty clear that our depth at WR was absolute dog shit. Demarcus Robinson scared nobody. He rarely beat 1v1 coverage. Pringle was solid but wasn’t a true field stretcher.

I think Juju can do a lot of the things Sammy did for us. He’s got that bigger athletic body to force missed tackles and still be effective. MVS is not a word beater but he does present a few threat that’s legitimate and that is always on defenders minds when a QB like Patrick is their opponent.

I hope Ross and Skyy take off so we don’t have to pay Juju or Hardman bc I really don’t want to spend about $20 million per on either of those guys. I’d much rather just draft another WR early next year

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Listening to Veach on Florio’s pod…

He made an interesting point when asked about the Tyreek trade. He said they had problems even before that when Sammy was gone bc he helped Tyreek and Kelce simply due to his presence, especially when he was “on”.

It’s pretty clear that our depth at WR was absolute dog shit. Demarcus Robinson scared nobody. He rarely beat 1v1 coverage. Pringle was solid but wasn’t a true field stretcher.

I think Juju can do a lot of the things Sammy did for us. He’s got that bigger athletic body to force missed tackles and still be effective. MVS is not a word beater but he does present a few threat that’s legitimate and that is always on defenders minds when a QB like Patrick is their opponent.

I hope Ross and Skyy take off so we don’t have to pay Juju or Hardman bc I really don’t want to spend about $20 million per on either of those guys. I’d much rather just draft another WR early next year

We won't.

Veach has laid his cards out pretty strongly here. This is going to be the gameplan for the foreseeable future at WR. Young talent and undervalued vets. Ideally ascending ones. If you can get them to sign for 2-3 years at a reasonable price point that allows you to lock in some possible upside, fine. But if they're wanting a 1 year deal so they can chase 20 million, you're not bringing 'em back.

I just don't see them making high dollar investments at WR for the foreseeable future. If it was something they were interested in, they'd have found a way to get it done with Tyreek.

[ArrowheadMagic]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

We won't.

Veach has laid his cards out pretty strongly here. This is going to be the gameplan for the foreseeable future at WR. Young talent and undervalued vets. Ideally ascending ones. If you can get them to sign for 2-3 years at a reasonable price point that allows you to lock in some possible upside, fine. But if they're wanting a 1 year deal so they can chase 20 million, you're not bringing 'em back.

I just don't see them making high dollar investments at WR for the foreseeable future. If it was something they were interested in, they'd have found a way to get it done with Tyreek.

Assuming Tyreek wasn't set on his big contract being state tax free and in the city he was building a house. Comparing WRs to Tyreek is just as nonsensical as comparing contracts. Don't think Vetch played any cards.. right compensation met right move. QB type of haul.. Let. Tyreek go get his, cash