****Our Wide Receivers Suck- Official Thread****

[Sofa King]

They can’t get open, they drop passes in their hands, their jet sweeps are slow and terrible. These guys are not good.

[BWillie]

Originally Posted by Coogs

We do seem to be following the Packers model when they had Rogers as QB. And quite frankly we have done what many here at CP were advocating for in building our roster to surround Mahomes. That narrative was to give Mahomes (and Rogers in GB) a defense and an O-line and they would never lose. It didn't work out in GB, and it appears it's not the route that works best here either.

Give Mahomes his weapons, and let him work his magic going forward. And by weapons, I don't mean JAG's from other teams rosters like we have been doing.Castoffs from the G-men?

Get Mahomes some real talent to go with Rice going forward. If we have the 20th rated defense, so be it.

Agreed. Defense no longer wins championships.

[O.city]

The years the Chiefs won Sb's with all those weapons and an offense were the years they had the best defenses.

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by Sassy Squatch

Uh, people keep saying that because it's literally the truth. Take out Juju. Replace with Rice. It's the exact same room. And as we've seen recently and sprinkled throughout the year, Rice was and is absolutely capable of stepping in RIGHT NOW and giving us most of what Juju did, and in some aspects MORE.

A couple of points.

Juju seemed to catch more downfield passes. It seems like Rice is making most of his catches on screens. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it seems like. JuJu was used differently.

Kelce is a step slower than last year.

MVS and Moore have regressed. It doesn't seem possible, but they not only aren't producing, they are killing the team in times of need with drops and/or poor routes.

The playcalling is reminiscent of the year KC went an entire season without a WR touchdown. For as brilliant as Reid is, there are times this year when it is absolutely baffling how they cant design a few plays a week to get Toney in space on a drag or slant. Not to have a single target to Toney or Watson this past week is criminal.

[O.city]

They are getting those looks. Seems the year with no WR touchdowns, all we heard was bad QB play.

I dunno.

[TEX]

Originally Posted by philfree

People underestimate what JuJu brought to the team. A veteran player who could get to where he was supposed to be and catch the ball. Rice has done okay but he's not brining what JuJu brought. We don't have that guy this year and the vet that we hoped would step up flails when the ball is in the air.

Not sure the new WR Coach and new OC are helping matters much either.

[wachashi]

Something I heard a few times last night watching the Bengals vs Jaguars game, and which I don't think I've ever heard watching the 2023 Chiefs:

"What a great route by [wide receiver's name]."

[TEX]

Originally Posted by Coogs

We do seem to be following the Packers model when they had Rogers as QB. And quite frankly we have done what many here at CP were advocating for in building our roster to surround Mahomes. That narrative was to give Mahomes (and Rogers in GB) a defense and an O-line and they would never lose. It didn't work out in GB, and it appears it's not the route that works best here either.

Give Mahomes his weapons, and let him work his magic going forward. And by weapons, I don't mean JAG's from other teams rosters like we have been doing.Castoffs from the G-men?

Get Mahomes some real talent to go with Rice going forward. If we have the 20th rated defense, so be it.

Yep. Go scorched earth. Always will have a chance.

[TheGuardian]

As bad as the WR play has been at times, the pick Mahomes threw on that shoulda been pick route, was his fault. Moore expected a back shoulder throw based on Nixon not getting rubbed and Mahomes didn't read the coverage.

That's clear as day. Yes there are times when Pat makes mistakes too and it's not the WR, and that was one of them. So that's an instance where the WR actually makes the proper read and then Pat shits the bed.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by O.city

People underestimate how good Mahomes was last year with that crew. HE elevated those guys.

Like the interception the other night. Everyone bitches about the WR's making route adjustments and what not due to coverage......well that's what that way. Sky did what he was supposed to do, Pat didn't.

I've been out since Sunday, I'm not sure if that was said here or not, but in the end, Pat is making the most money of any QB in the league and if he doesn't play like it, we're behind the 8 ball somewhere.

I got lots of thoughts on this.

First of all, QBs make mistakes. That’s why we dwell on a few mistakes for a qb who throws 40 times a game. Even if skyy did his job there within the 8 targets our bottom 3 WRs had I think we saw mistakes in routes on 2-3 of them. We can’t afford to make mistakes. Because he doesn’t have WRs who can cover it up, or jump ball guys if he doesn’t see anything, or the luxury of throwing open guys who inconsistently hit their spots. We also really have the most success with these runs and quick hitches and screens. So all our drives are long and plodding and so much as a single sack or tackle for a loss or penalty feels like a drive killer.

So yeah, juju may seem like a small deal. But mahomes had the confidence he could reasonably beat any coverage and he’d be exactly where we wanted him. We underestimated kelces gigantic role and see a massive impact from even a small regression. We knew defenses would have a target on our back and yet tripled down on what worked last year.

I think people are ruling out that what worked last year isn’t necessarily gonna work this year. Scheme wise, offenses are back to being rewarded for being aggressive. We’ve seen lafleur, McCarthy and pederson start the season pretty stagnant. They’ve each evolved midseason to an attack offense. We just don’t have the weapons to evolve in that way.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Juju seemed to catch more downfield passes. It seems like Rice is making most of his catches on screens. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it seems like. JuJu was used differently.
...

The playcalling is reminiscent of the year KC went an entire season without a WR touchdown. For as brilliant as Reid is, there are times this year when it is absolutely baffling how they cant design a few plays a week to get Toney in space on a drag or slant. Not to have a single target to Toney or Watson this past week is criminal.

I mean technically he did catch a few more passes 'downfield' but it depends on your definition of same.

JuJu caught 18 passes more than 10 yards downfield all season (none more than 20). Rice so far has caught 7.

JuJu ran 528 routes last season; Rice has run 245. You go ahead and pro-rate Rice's routes run to JuJu's 528 and you're looking at 15 catches more than 10 yards downfield vs. JuJu's 18. There's no notable difference there. That's 3 balls over a full season - that's not going to move the needle at all.

Now when I say it depends on how you define 'downfield' - Rice has already caught 17 balls behind the LOS vs only 6 for Rashee. And it ain't the deep balls where that gap is closing. Where you're seeing the difference is that Rice isn't catching nearly as many balls from 0-9 yards as JuJu did (63 vs. 28). So it isn't really that JuJu caught more 'downfield' passes than Rice does unless you count short passes just past the LOS (0-9 yards) as being 'downfield'.

But here's why I say this is an opportunity rather than ability issue - again, if you double Rice's routes to get to where JuJu ended up, then suddenly he's almost identical in short catches past the LOS to where JuJu was. Moreover, Rice has a 120 passer rating when targeted on those short passes whereas JuJu had a 103.

Additionally, JuJu ran 254 'short' (0-9) routes for a total of 613 yards receiving - 2.41 yards/RR. Thus far Rice has run 95 'short' routes for 300 yards receiving -- 3.16 yards/RR. And for both guys, the bulk of their work is over the middle (though Rice over the middle has actually been a pretty significant upgrade - short middle has 210 yards for Rice over 58 routes run vs. 328 yards over 143 for JuJu).

I mean the short answer is simply that the only difference between what Rice and JuJu have done this year is volume just past the LOS and short of 10 yards. And that if that were to equalize at all, Rice would just strafe JuJu across the board.

We aren't missing JuJu. We simply aren't using Rice the way we should. He is proving to be extremely efficient in every area of the field (except the deep ball) and we're simply not utilizing him the way we could/should.

And it's been a trend. We're doing that with Toney as well. We're doing that with James. Meanwhile we're over-exposing Watson, MVS and Moore and asking them to do shit like slot fades that they simply aren't equipped for.

I really don't understand how we can continue to see some of these figures and say the offense is exclusively a product of poor WRs - we simply don't know because we aren't USING these guys in a way that gets their best work out of them. The problem is, and has been all year, the way we're rotating and utilizing our WRs. Until we put them in positions to succeed and capitalize on their strengths, we can't know if they truly suck. But I know with Rice and the numbers under the hood, you can see he's CLEARLY been criminally underutilized.

We aren't missing JuJu - we're simply not using Rice the way we should. He can bring all the things that JuJu brought but we continue to slow-play him.

[Jerm]

Originally Posted by Coogs

We do seem to be following the Packers model when they had Rogers as QB. And quite frankly we have done what many here at CP were advocating for in building our roster to surround Mahomes. That narrative was to give Mahomes (and Rogers in GB) a defense and an O-line and they would never lose. It didn't work out in GB, and it appears it's not the route that works best here either.

Give Mahomes his weapons, and let him work his magic going forward. And by weapons, I don't mean JAG's from other teams rosters like we have been doing.Castoffs from the G-men?

Get Mahomes some real talent to go with Rice going forward. If we have the 20th rated defense, so be it.

Ding, ding, ding….

This team should always dump its $$$/resources into the offense, give Thanos at QB all the infinity stones, and piece together a defense (hell even draft more there) and live with having a middle of the pack defense and an uber offense.

We’ve seen this team be able to overcome a shoddy defense when it was built with the offense first in mind…it ain’t gonna happen the other way I’m afraid.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I got lots of thoughts on this.

First of all, QBs make mistakes. That’s why we dwell on a few mistakes for a qb who throws 40 times a game. Even if skyy did his job there within the 8 targets our bottom 3 WRs had I think we saw mistakes in routes on 2-3 of them. We can’t afford to make mistakes. Because he doesn’t have WRs who can cover it up, or jump ball guys if he doesn’t see anything, or the luxury of throwing open guys who inconsistently hit their spots. We also really have the most success with these runs and quick hitches and screens. So all our drives are long and plodding and so much as a single sack or tackle for a loss or penalty feels like a drive killer.

So yeah, juju may seem like a small deal. But mahomes had the confidence he could reasonably beat any coverage and he’d be exactly where we wanted him. We underestimated kelces gigantic role and see a massive impact from even a small regression. We knew defenses would have a target on our back and yet tripled down on what worked last year.

I think people are ruling out that what worked last year isn’t necessarily gonna work this year. Scheme wise, offenses are back to being rewarded for being aggressive. We’ve seen lafleur, McCarthy and pederson start the season pretty stagnant. They’ve each evolved midseason to an attack offense. We just don’t have the weapons to evolve in that way.

Based on some of the throws we've seen Mahomes make to Rice, I believe he trusts Rice as well.

Now it's on the coaching staff to do the same.

They need to take the cellophane off the kid and use him.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Jerm

Ding, ding, ding….

This team should always dump its $$$/resources into the offense, give Thanos at QB all the infinity stones, and piece together a defense (hell even draft more there) and live with having a middle of the pack defense and an uber offense.

We’ve seen this team be able to overcome a shoddy defense when it was built with the offense first in mind…it ain’t gonna happen the other way I’m afraid.

We did that in 2018 and lost.

There's no 'right' answer but I believe there's a wrong one. Dumping all resources into the offense and hoping to win shootouts is a wrong one.

There needs to be balance and the Chiefs absolutely intended to create that balance. The problem isn't the plan - it's that they didn't execute it well. A 1st on a RB did dick. A 2nd on Moore did dick. That's a fair bit of draft capital on 'weapons' that flamed out. MVS has regressed significantly with a fairly substantial cap hit in his own right. I think Toney was expected to be an 800+ yard receiver and his use in Week 1 surely suggests that - it hasn't happened. Taylor's erratic play has created problems.

The answer isn't 'damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!' on offense. Its that you have to be right more than they were in creating this year's offense. You can have a few question marks miss but frankly, just about all of them have to this point.

Put your eggs wherever you want them but in the event you roll snakeyes on your off-season gambles damn near across the board (Rice is really the only hit they've had) you're going to struggle. That's just the nature of a parity driven league.

[chiefzilla1501]

It’s interesting to look at the evolution of offenses versus the ones that got stuck. I haven’t dug too deep into these other offenses but this is just a gut feel thing.

Dallas decided they’re just going to force it to CeeDee no matter what. Jacksonville is all about very quick decisions and spreading targets everywhere. Houston and Green Bay are pure **** it just Chuck it offenses. Stroud has some of the worst accuracy metrics but he’s just fearless. I would love to see the chiefs do what Jacksonville did last night which was just a beautifully designed offense, but Houston is a great example of not needing all world weapons… you just need guys who can go up and get any ball. It’s interesting you’re seeing these types of teams emerge in the second half of the season.

Buffalo and the chargers seem to have regressed for similar reasons. Two QBs who are too reliant on their primary options, though buffalo may be starting to evolve since the moved away from 12-13 personnel (not necessarily by choice) and into 3 wr sets.

So in terms of where the puck needs to go I think these teams give some clues to where we need to go.

[Jerm]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

We did that in 2018 and lost.

There's no 'right' answer but I believe there's a wrong one. Dumping all resources into the offense and hoping to win shootouts is a wrong one.

There needs to be balance and the Chiefs absolutely intended to create that balance. The problem isn't the plan - it's that they didn't execute it well. A 1st on a RB did dick. A 2nd on Moore did dick. That's a fair bit of draft capital on 'weapons' that flamed out. MVS has regressed significantly with a fairly substantial cap hit in his own right. I think Toney was expected to be an 800+ yard receiver and his use in Week 1 surely suggests that - it hasn't happened. Taylor's erratic play has created problems.

The answer isn't 'damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!' on offense. Its that you have to be right more than they were in creating this year's offense. You can have a few question marks miss but frankly, just about all of them have to this point.

Put your eggs wherever you want them but in the event you roll snakeyes on your off-season gambles damn near across the board (Rice is really the only hit they've had) you're going to struggle. That's just the nature of a parity driven league.

I understand what you’re saying but that strategy took us to 4 straight AFC Championships and what *should* have been 4 straight Super Bowls…we won 1 with it and should’ve gone back to back if not for Eric Fisher’s injury and Britt Reid being a dumb ****.

I don’t really know if you can find real balance in today’s NFL esp. with a QB on a huge deal…I think you kind of have to pick and lane and go with it.

The Eagles may be the exception but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that their one big splash move was a trade for a WR…