****Our Wide Receivers Suck- Official Thread****

[Sofa King]

They can’t get open, they drop passes in their hands, their jet sweeps are slow and terrible. These guys are not good.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by In58men

It’s okay to say we’re struggling to find above average WRs, we’re still winning games so it’s not that big of a concern as of now.

Just saying, sooner or later we gotta get it right.

It's also okay to have a little patience. When Reid says that he's working the young guys in slowly, he's not just talking out of his ass. It's pointless to judge this receiving corps at the beginning of the year. The best talents are probably the least experienced.

Tyreek Hill had 87 receiving yds after his first 5 games under Reid. But for some reason, we're expecting 100/game from Rice? The game that Justyn Ross just had (2 catches for 28) would have been Tyreek's best game 5 weeks into his career.

I guess I just don't see what people are freaking out about. KC is a few fluke plays from 5-0. Like Nick Wright said, they're treating games like practice and still winning. The passing game will obviously be smoother by the end of the year than it is now.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

You would have to assume we never kneeled on a ball before this year, it's Andy Reid. We call the dogs off and always have.

And they did it in the Chicago game too. Could have easily scored 60+ in that one. But kneeling on the goal line is pretty dang rare.

[MahomesMagic]

Originally Posted by DRM08

And they did it in the Chicago game too. Could have easily scored 60+ in that one. But kneeling on the goal line is pretty dang rare.

The issue is you are only adding points to this year.

If you can go through one of those years (there were many) where we were #1 and demonstrate we never kneeled the ball at the end I'll listen.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

The only two cases I can think of are Steve Smith and Tyreek Hill as players that got significantly better in the NFL.

Devante Adams?

Christian Watson was a complete bust after his first 9 games?

[MahomesMagic]

Originally Posted by TwistedChief

Devante Adams?

Christian Watson was a complete bust after his first 9 games?

Adams always got open, he just had concentration drops early.

Watson is what he is. A weapon, super MVS, but still is never going to be a guy you line up as WR #1.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

The issue is you are only adding points to this year.

If you can go through one of those years (there were many) where we were #1 and demonstrate we never kneeled the ball at the end I'll listen.

I know they've had plenty of games where they ran clock or kneeled it out in previous years, but not at the goal line in the regular season. I'd like to see examples of it on the goal line. It happened with McKinnon in the Super Bowl, but that doesn't count in the regular season stats you brought up earlier. It has happened twice in only 5 games this year.

If you're bringing up points per play, that's kind of a big deal when 40% of the games were impacted by a choice to not score on the goal line after long drives. Make no mistake, those "zero point" drives to seal victory over JAX & NYJ were just as important as any scoring drive this season. 25 plays, no points, but a ton of clock taken away from the opponent at the very end.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

Adams always got open, he just had concentration drops early.

Watson is what he is. A weapon, super MVS, but still is never going to be a guy you line up as WR #1.

You have very weird criteria that you apply selectively.

Tyreek Hill always got open as well but you included him as a guy who developed.

And Christian Watson is WR1 on the Packers.

I think there are plenty of ways that players can develop.

[MahomesMagic]

Originally Posted by TwistedChief

You have very weird criteria that you apply selectively.

Tyreek Hill always got open as well but you included him as a guy who developed.

And Christian Watson is WR1 on the Packers.

I think there are plenty of ways that players can develop.

Watson hasn't really changed.

I think Tyreek did become a much better route runner than when he first came into the league.

The point is it is rare. Guys that can't run routes in college should not be expected to suddenly be able to do it in the NFL if they could not in college.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

Watson hasn't really changed.

I think Tyreek did become a much better route runner than when he first came into the league.

The point is it is rare. Guys that can't run routes in college should not be expected to suddenly be able to do it in the NFL if they could not in college.

Wasn't Skyy Moore considered a pretty good route runner at the college level? Sad that he seems lost in the NFL so far. I hope he can figure it out. There's still time, but it's not looking very good.

[MahomesMagic]

Originally Posted by DRM08

I know they've had plenty of games where they ran clock or kneeled it out in previous years, but not at the goal line in the regular season. I'd like to see examples of it on the goal line. It happened with McKinnon in the Super Bowl, but that doesn't count in the regular season stats you brought up earlier. It has happened twice in only 5 games this year.

If you're bringing up points per play, that's kind of a big deal when 40% of the games were impacted by a choice to not score on the goal line after long drives. Make no mistake, those "zero point" drives to seal victory over JAX & NYJ were just as important as any scoring drive this season. 25 plays, no points, but a ton of clock taken away from the opponent at the very end.

2022

Kneel Downs

Jax
4 4:27 1 10 KAN 49 17 27 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by DaVon Hamilton) 2.190 2.190
4 4:23 Timeout #3 by Jacksonville Jaguars
4 4:23 2 6 JAX 47 17 27 Isiah Pacheco left end for 5 yards (tackle by Josh Allen) 2.190 2.150
4 3:42 3 1 JAX 42 17 27 Michael Burton left guard for -1 yards (tackle by Folorunso Fatukasi) 2.150 0.400
4 2:56 Timeout #1 by Kansas City Chiefs
4 2:56 4 2 JAX 43 17 27 Patrick Mahomes pass complete short right to Travis Kelce for 4 yards (tackle by Chad Muma) 0.400 2.980
4 2:13 1 10 JAX 39 17 27 Jerick McKinnon left guard for 2 yards (tackle by Roy Robertson-Harris) 2.980 2.710
4 2:00 2 8 JAX 37 17 27 Isiah Pacheco left guard for 4 yards (tackle by Chad Muma) 2.710 2.540
4 1:16 3 4 JAX 33 17 27 Isiah Pacheco left end for 5 yards (tackle by Josh Allen and Chad Muma) 2.540 3.710
4 0:35 1 10 JAX 28 17 27 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards

Denver
4 3:12 1 10 KAN 45 34 28 Isiah Pacheco left guard for 4 yards (tackle by Jonathan Harris) 1.930 1.920
4 3:07 Timeout #3 by Denver Broncos
4 3:07 2 6 KAN 49 34 28 Jerick McKinnon left tackle for 7 yards (tackle by Josey Jewell) 1.920 2.650
4 2:22 1 10 DEN 44 34 28 Jerick McKinnon right tackle for no gain (tackle by Dre'Mont Jones and Josey Jewell) 2.650 2.180
4 2:00 2 9 DEN 44 34 28 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 10 yards (tackle by Justin Simmons and K'Waun Williams) 2.180 3.310
4 1:17 1 10 DEN 34 34 28 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards 3.310 2.640
4 0:38 2 11 DEN 35 34 28 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards

Denver again
4 1:19 1 10 DEN 36 24 27 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 2 yards (tackle by DeShawn Williams and Mike Purcell) 3.180 2.910
4 1:16 Timeout #1 by Denver Broncos
4 1:16 2 8 DEN 34 24 27 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 3 yards (tackle by Jonathon Cooper and Josey Jewell) 2.910 2.610
4 1:09 Timeout #2 by Denver Broncos
4 1:09 3 5 DEN 31 24 27 Patrick Mahomes pass complete short left to Travis Kelce for 6 yards (tackle by Kareem Jackson) 2.610 3.910
4 0:37 Timeout #3 by Denver Broncos
4 0:37 1 10 DEN 25 24 27 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards

Vegas
4 4:24 1 10 LVR 34 31 13 Ronald Jones right guard for 9 yards (tackle by Luke Masterson and Duron Harmon) 3.310 3.990
4 3:42 2 1 LVR 25 31 13 Ronald Jones right guard for 4 yards (tackle by Jerry Tillery and Bilal Nichols) 3.990 4.170
4 2:56 1 10 LVR 21 31 13 Ronald Jones right guard for 1 yard (tackle by Andrew Billings) 4.170 3.760
4 2:15 2 9 LVR 20 31 13 Ronald Jones left tackle for -1 yards (tackle by Maxx Crosby and Trevon Moehrig) 3.760 2.940
4 2:00 3 10 LVR 21 31 13 Ronald Jones left tackle for 13 yards (tackle by Trevon Moehrig and Roderic Teamer) 2.940 5.370
4 1:10 1 8 LVR 8 31 13 Chad Henne kneels for -1 yards 5.370 4.380
4 0:30 2 9 LVR 9 31 13 Chad Henne kneels for -1 yards

[RaidersOftheCellar]

We’ll see if this post ends up looking stupid, but I think Rice and Ross are both going to be pretty well-known around the league soon. Toney will be the secret weapon. Too injury-prone to consistently make a difference, but always dangerous and maybe the most talented of the group.

As long as Kelce doesn’t fall off a cliff, I like the potential here.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

Watson hasn't really changed.

I think Tyreek did become a much better route runner than when he first came into the league.

The point is it is rare. Guys that can't run routes in college should not be expected to suddenly be able to do it in the NFL if they could not in college.

Statistics and fewer drops would indicate that things have indeed changed for Watson.

Hill became a better route runner but he was still open all the time from the outset.

Devante Adams was widely considered a poor route runner in college:

Plays very sloppily and inconsistently.
Timing of his routes and effort when making cuts is inconsistent, at best.
Seems to play lazily at times and rounds off his routes.
He lacks the athleticism to have such a passive approach to the game.
Extremely inconsistent in his body placement on 50-50 balls.

Moore, in contrast, was widely considered a good route runner in college.

Shows polish on the routes he is asked to run. Maintains speed coming out of breaks and understands how to stay friendly to the quarterback on his breaks.
Flashes the quickness and play strength to beat press coverage. Keeps corners off-balanced.

But again, selective framing on your part.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

2022

Kneel Downs

Jax
4 4:27 1 10 KAN 49 17 27 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by DaVon Hamilton) 2.190 2.190
4 4:23 Timeout #3 by Jacksonville Jaguars
4 4:23 2 6 JAX 47 17 27 Isiah Pacheco left end for 5 yards (tackle by Josh Allen) 2.190 2.150
4 3:42 3 1 JAX 42 17 27 Michael Burton left guard for -1 yards (tackle by Folorunso Fatukasi) 2.150 0.400
4 2:56 Timeout #1 by Kansas City Chiefs
4 2:56 4 2 JAX 43 17 27 Patrick Mahomes pass complete short right to Travis Kelce for 4 yards (tackle by Chad Muma) 0.400 2.980
4 2:13 1 10 JAX 39 17 27 Jerick McKinnon left guard for 2 yards (tackle by Roy Robertson-Harris) 2.980 2.710
4 2:00 2 8 JAX 37 17 27 Isiah Pacheco left guard for 4 yards (tackle by Chad Muma) 2.710 2.540
4 1:16 3 4 JAX 33 17 27 Isiah Pacheco left end for 5 yards (tackle by Josh Allen and Chad Muma) 2.540 3.710
4 0:35 1 10 JAX 28 17 27 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards

Denver
4 3:12 1 10 KAN 45 34 28 Isiah Pacheco left guard for 4 yards (tackle by Jonathan Harris) 1.930 1.920
4 3:07 Timeout #3 by Denver Broncos
4 3:07 2 6 KAN 49 34 28 Jerick McKinnon left tackle for 7 yards (tackle by Josey Jewell) 1.920 2.650
4 2:22 1 10 DEN 44 34 28 Jerick McKinnon right tackle for no gain (tackle by Dre'Mont Jones and Josey Jewell) 2.650 2.180
4 2:00 2 9 DEN 44 34 28 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 10 yards (tackle by Justin Simmons and K'Waun Williams) 2.180 3.310
4 1:17 1 10 DEN 34 34 28 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards 3.310 2.640
4 0:38 2 11 DEN 35 34 28 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards

Denver again
4 1:19 1 10 DEN 36 24 27 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 2 yards (tackle by DeShawn Williams and Mike Purcell) 3.180 2.910
4 1:16 Timeout #1 by Denver Broncos
4 1:16 2 8 DEN 34 24 27 Isiah Pacheco up the middle for 3 yards (tackle by Jonathon Cooper and Josey Jewell) 2.910 2.610
4 1:09 Timeout #2 by Denver Broncos
4 1:09 3 5 DEN 31 24 27 Patrick Mahomes pass complete short left to Travis Kelce for 6 yards (tackle by Kareem Jackson) 2.610 3.910
4 0:37 Timeout #3 by Denver Broncos
4 0:37 1 10 DEN 25 24 27 Patrick Mahomes kneels for -1 yards

Vegas
4 4:24 1 10 LVR 34 31 13 Ronald Jones right guard for 9 yards (tackle by Luke Masterson and Duron Harmon) 3.310 3.990
4 3:42 2 1 LVR 25 31 13 Ronald Jones right guard for 4 yards (tackle by Jerry Tillery and Bilal Nichols) 3.990 4.170
4 2:56 1 10 LVR 21 31 13 Ronald Jones right guard for 1 yard (tackle by Andrew Billings) 4.170 3.760
4 2:15 2 9 LVR 20 31 13 Ronald Jones left tackle for -1 yards (tackle by Maxx Crosby and Trevon Moehrig) 3.760 2.940
4 2:00 3 10 LVR 21 31 13 Ronald Jones left tackle for 13 yards (tackle by Trevon Moehrig and Roderic Teamer) 2.940 5.370
4 1:10 1 8 LVR 8 31 13 Chad Henne kneels for -1 yards 5.370 4.380
4 0:30 2 9 LVR 9 31 13 Chad Henne kneels for -1 yards

All of those were finished at the 25-30 yard line. Not exactly the same as giving up 6 points at the goal line. Last weekend the Jaguars had a chance to slide at the goal line against Buffalo and chose not to do it. Damn near backfired on JAX, but it's an example of another team choosing to run the ball into the end zone in that situation.

Here's the first 5 games of 2022 compared to the first 5 games of 2023:

1 blowout with 1.5 quarters of garbage time (2022 Cardinals, 2023 Bears)
1 close loss where KC tried to score at the end (2022 Colts, 2023 Lions)
1 victory where KC punted on final possession (2022 Tampa, 2023 Vikings)
2 victories with various degrees of kneeling out. Here they are below...

2022 Week 2 LA Chargers: Very close game. Only 2 plays to kneel out 1:11 of clock at the Chargers 44 yard line.
2022 Week 5 LV Raiders: Very close game. Only 1 play to kneel out 41 seconds of clock at the Raiders 45 yard line.

2023 Week 2 Jaguars: Close game. 10 plays and 77 yards to kneel out 4:18 of clock at the Jaguars 1 yard line.
2023 Week 4 NY Jets: Close game. 15 plays and 45 yards to kneel out 7:34 of clock at the Jets 1 yard line.

[MahomesMagic]

Originally Posted by DRM08

All of those were finished at the 25-30 yard line. Not exactly the same as giving up 6 points at the goal line. Last weekend the Jaguars had a chance to slide at the goal line against Buffalo and chose not to do it. Damn near backfired on JAX, but it's an example of another team choosing to run the ball into the end zone in that situation.

Here's the first 5 games of 2022 compared to the first 5 games of 2023:

1 blowout with 1.5 quarters of garbage time (2022 Cardinals, 2023 Bears)
1 close loss where KC tried to score at the end (2022 Colts, 2023 Lions)
1 victory where KC punted on final possession (2022 Tampa, 2023 Vikings)
2 victories with various degrees of kneeling out. Here they are below...

2022 Week 2 LA Chargers: Very close game. Only 2 plays to kneel out 1:11 of clock at the Chargers 44 yard line.
2022 Week 5 LV Raiders: Very close game. Only 1 play to kneel out 41 seconds of clock at the Raiders 45 yard line.

2023 Week 2 Jaguars: Close game. 10 plays and 77 yards to kneel out 4:18 of clock at the Jaguars 1 yard line.
2023 Week 4 NY Jets: Close game. 15 plays and 45 yards to kneel out 7:34 of clock at the Jets 1 yard line.

So you're assuming that near the goal line we make a TD and when in FG range we just miss the fg?

Plus this is just when we had the ball last. Plenty of other games we took the air out early.

Maybe consider what also is obvious watching-the offense not as good.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

So you're assuming that near the goal line we make a TD and when in FG range we just miss the fg?

Plus this is just when we had the ball last. Plenty of other games we took the air out early.

Maybe consider what also is obvious watching-the offense not as good.

Where are the chip-shot field goals? I gave you the comparison of the first 5 games of 2022 and 2023. The 2022 kneel-outs happened at mid-field...not easy range for any kicker. Even if you don't want to give KC a touchdown against the Jaguars, Mahomes was walking into the end zone against the Jets when he slid to the ground. That's undeniable.

Here's another factor. The opponents are scoring 9 points per game less against the Chiefs in 2023 compared to 2022 for the first 5 games. I tend to think Andy would amp up some things if he felt they needed to do it in a shootout scenario.