****Our Wide Receivers Suck- Official Thread****

[Sofa King]

They can’t get open, they drop passes in their hands, their jet sweeps are slow and terrible. These guys are not good.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

Does the 1 for Moore really make filling those future needs that much tougher though?

I'm not sure the future needs really require a 1. Maybe your LT obviously, but they've bandaided it before so maybe you can keep doing that.

Ideally, you don't have to do it and I'm not sure the Bears will allow their GM to do it anyway.

I mean there's simple draft value in the 1.

If you trade that 1 into the mid-2nd, you end up with another 3rd for your efforts and a pick better than the 2nd.

Yeah - trading a 1 instead of 2 makes a big difference in our ability to attack certain areas of need.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I feel like they didn't really build around Toney as much as they banked on either Toney staying healthy/productive OR Moore improving.

To this point they've gotten neither.

I think they figured at least one of those 2 possibilities would hit. And they didn't have the spare capital to really create a 3rd.

I mean ultimately think about how badly things would've gone last season without Pacheco. That's the cost of busting on a 1st/2nd round pick you're counting on to start. Pacheco as a 7th rounder performing like a 1st/2nd day pick bailed us out.

So Moore busting left Toney as the possible 'salvage' and if he's not performing, we're reaching deep into the bag.

Yeah, probably. That's what I'm getting at though, you only have so many options in this thing.

Sure, I'd rather have Tyreek there and the problem solves itself, but that creates other issues. In the end, it's all a shell game.

I'm just saying that I see the intrigue with Toney. The guy is every bit the player that any of these top end guys are physically. He just needs health.

Some guys it just never happens for. Maybe that's him. But some guys have injury issues then they figure it out and don't.

[Eleazar]

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...nap-counts.htm

Going back to this, here's the number of snaps / targets / receptions so far:

MVS 175 / 9 / 6
Moore 175 / 15 / 7
Watson 124 / 13 / 8
Rice 103 / 19 / 13
Toney 54 / 13 / 9
Ross 48 / 2 / 1
James 26 / 3 / 1

Clearly, one of these guys is making more out of his snaps than the others.

Play design and game flow affects this of course, and we know the plan (wise or unwise) was to bank on Toney being our #1 and that is affecting things.

But Rice clearly is making more of the opportunities he's getting than the others are.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by O.city

Yeah, probably. That's what I'm getting at though, you only have so many options in this thing.

Sure, I'd rather have Tyreek there and the problem solves itself, but that creates other issues. In the end, it's all a shell game.

I'm just saying that I see the intrigue with Toney. The guy is every bit the player that any of these top end guys are physically. He just needs health.

Some guys it just never happens for. Maybe that's him. But some guys have injury issues then they figure it out and don't.

What did Toney play... 20 snaps in the opener?

Got wide open on half of them?

Dude is absolutely a player.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

What did Toney play... 20 snaps in the opener?

Got wide open on half of them?

Dude is absolutely a player.

He's always open, always makes plays when given the opportunity, week 1 notwithstanding.

It's just health.

Stay healthy. That's it. Sometimes that's just not possible.

[Dante84]

I think a savvy, outside-the-box, cost-effective type of move we could make is to trade for another RB. Hear me out.

- Our line can demolish in the run.
- Being able to run effectively allows us to play ball control, which has already won us two games (Jets, Jags) in the 4th quarter.
- Our ELITE defense, the first of PM's career, gets more rest and will be more fresh later in the game when it counts.
- If we prove to move the chains early by running, the defense will have to creep into the box. When they do that, we still have PM.
- We can use an upgrade over CEH.
- We can use some insurance for Pacheco.
- Trading for a RB is (probably) cheaper than trading for a WR.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by staylor26

I bet this goes about as well as your "McDuffie isn't ready" take.

Time makes fools of us all.

[JPH83]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I feel like they didn't really build around Toney as much as they banked on either Toney staying healthy/productive OR Moore improving.

To this point they've gotten neither.

I think they figured at least one of those 2 possibilities would hit. And they didn't have the spare capital to really create a 3rd.

I mean ultimately think about how badly things would've gone last season without Pacheco. That's the cost of busting on a 1st/2nd round pick you're counting on to start. Pacheco as a 7th rounder performing like a 1st/2nd day pick bailed us out.

So Moore busting left Toney as the possible 'salvage' and if he's not performing, we're reaching deep into the bag.

I don't want to call Pacheco luck because great pick I guess. But man the CEH pick is the worst. Even accounting for it being cancelled out by a great late round pick up at RB, there's just no business taking a RB R1. Goddammit I hate that pick. It's way worse than Moore not performing.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by O.city

Does the 1 for Moore really make filling those future needs that much tougher though?

I'm not sure the future needs really require a 1. Maybe your LT obviously, but they've bandaided it before so maybe you can keep doing that.

Ideally, you don't have to do it and I'm not sure the Bears will allow their GM to do it anyway.

I’ll keep pushing back on that. I’m good with doing this through constantly hitting the draft so you don’t have to spend. But it’s needed. It becomes more and more needed as we wind down kelce. But there’s just so much relief you can provide to mahomes. I just wish we had a bail out where we can just throw a back shoulder or sideline jump ball and ask the WR to go up and get it. A lot of what zack did yesterday was throw it to a spot where Garrett Wilson and nobody else could get it.

In the future… doesn’t it seem like we need to prioritize smart WRs over raw athleticism? Of course I’d want both but it seems like right now we can make it work if we had “good enough” athletes who consistently run good routes and have a feel for the position. That was the mistake with mecole who was pure raw speed and skyy who had a good attitude so we thought he’d mentally grow into the position.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I think he’s effective enough but I agree, it feels like Toney can do those same things but much much better. Maybe you just let skyy run it for now until we hit the later stretch when we can use Toney more heavily .

Literally every data point we have through 20+ career NFL games suggests otherwise.

He has one standout play as a receiver. One. The time he got Derwin James on 3rd down. Literally everything else he's ever done has been on busted coverages or guys falling down.

He made a nice catch on a perfectly thrown back-shoulder throw last week but y'know what? So did 3 other slapdicks for the Jets last night. On the rushing attempts you get a whole lot of risk for a reward of like 8 yards because he doesn't have the speed/slipperyness to break through the line and keep going.

He's a poor option as a gadget guy. This is a guy who STILL looks like he's on the same career arc as Dexter McCluster. And the tools aren't much different either.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I’ll keep pushing back on that. I’m good with doing this through constantly hitting the draft so you don’t have to spend. But it’s needed. It becomes more and more needed as we wind down kelce. But there’s just so much relief you can provide to mahomes. I just wish we had a bail out where we can just throw a back shoulder or sideline jump ball and ask the WR to go up and get it. A lot of what zack did yesterday was throw it to a spot where Garrett Wilson and nobody else could get it.

In the future… doesn’t it seem like we need to prioritize smart WRs over raw athleticism? Of course I’d want both but it seems like right now we can make it work if we had “good enough” athletes who consistently run good routes and have a feel for the position. That was the mistake with mecole who was pure raw speed and skyy who had a good attitude so we thought he’d mentally grow into the position.

Skyy wasn't a "raw athleticism" WR. He was a "smart savvy" route runner.

Thru all the WR's and players he's had here in his time, how many back shoulder sideline jump balls have Andy Reid offenses thrown?

[RunKC]

Rice got more targets than any WR last night. Again he played about half the snaps and he's showing real improvement. Give him time and by December he'll be a viable WR that will take over for Skyy. He'll be already is taking over Sky's role bc even though he doesn't have as many snaps as Skyy, he's getting the targets.

Toney is still in preseason mode. It's like people keep forgetting the guy had surgery and didn't go to camp. He only got 24% of the snaps last night and it was noticeable when he was in. That too will get better.

The real problem is at RB and TE. McKinnon is getting older and it's showing. We need to work hard to find his replacement next Spring bc his age is starting to show and Clyde just ****ing sucks.

We need a TE guys. I like Noah Gray but he just isn't enough. Last night was a good example of how having another talented TE to pair with Kelce could really **** over defenses, but when Kelce is not on the field we don't see much from Gray.

I feel really good about Rice and Toney will still be cheap next year. Not saying we shouldn't invest in a WR but to me the top priorities need to be RB and TE

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Time makes fools of us all.

The difference between me and you is that I get more shit right than wrong.

You're just flat out wrong the majority of the time.

And I'm sorry, but it's especially reeruned to come away from one practice and say Trent McDuffie, a guy who came out the draft as ready as they come, "wasn't ready", and anybody who questioned it must be wrong because they didn't attend a TC practice like you!

[O.city]

So yeah, Skyy Moore is the exact reason you don't take "smart WRs who may be less athletic" early in the draft.

Even if they hit, the upside isn't any different than what you get out of some shit bird 7th round UDFA pick up.

No, you keep taking good players who test well. IF you want elite testers, you're either paying alot for one or you're taking one in the first.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Razaele

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...nap-counts.htm

Going back to this, here's the number of snaps / targets / receptions so far:

MVS 175 / 9 / 6
Moore 175 / 15 / 7
Watson 124 / 13 / 8
Rice 103 / 19 / 13
Toney 54 / 13 / 9
Ross 48 / 2 / 1
James 26 / 3 / 1

Clearly, one of these guys is making more out of his snaps than the others.

Play design and game flow affects this of course, and we know the plan (wise or unwise) was to bank on Toney being our #1 and that is affecting things.

But Rice clearly is making more of the opportunities he's getting than the others are.

Double up Toney's snaps (i.e. to Rice's levels) and he's going to be even a little more productive than Rice has been. And again, that's with a catastrophic game included in there.

The clear pecking order on snaps should be some combination of MVS, Toney and Rice as your top 3 with the other guys being sub package players or strict backups.

It's time to stop ****ing around and get your starters established.