Is it the line, or the running back?

[Chris Meck]

I just thought since it comes up in every single thread, maybe we could talk about in one continuous conversation.

I think we'd all be in agreement that we need to be more consistent in the running game.

Some of us think the problem is lack of a talented enough RB to be a 'feature back'.

Some of us think that the biggest problem is that our interior offensive line is lousy, and when coupled with losing Fisher for half a season, was the biggest reason we were unable to run the ball.

Personally, I fall mostly in the second camp. I have no illusions that Damien Williams is a top 5 back; but I think with decent line play (such as we got once Fisher was back in the flow and Wisniewski took over LG) he can be effective when healthy. The problem is, he's never made a full season healthy; so I agree with taking a mid-round RB to provide competition and hopefully upgrade.

I think the interior offensive line is #2 on my priority list to upgrade, just after CB where we are dangerously thin. I don't believe that any RB upgrade will pay dividends without upgrading from OG-OG.

It's a chicken-and-the-egg argument really, but where do you come down?

[Deberg_1990]

Is it Damon Huard, Brodie Coyle or the Oline?

[Dunerdr]

would you rather have the line priest ran behind and a running back whos a good fit in the system, or Jamal and a flaming aids tree blocking?

[Chiefspants]

While many argue he isn't a true #1, Damien Williams footwork is truly elite. This skill truly stands out with what he's asked to do in Andy's offense, and Damien's overall effectiveness increased proportionally to when we solidified the offensive line at the end of the season. I've been beating this drum all over the place, but I would be curious to see Damien as our #1 with a solid IOL for the course of the season.

Andy, for one reason or another, loves running in the interior line. When the interior line is in shambles, it's going to be hard for most running backs (outside of Jamaal Charles) to be very effective. With that said, in another thread I took Damien's statistics since starting for Kareem Hunt in 2018 and compared them with Kareem's 14 starts in 2018.

In that span Damien has played in 19 games and started 14 times. Since Damien split the load in the majority of those starts, I decided to compare his numbers to Kareem’s final season and last three full starts in 2017 (excluding Denver, where he only had one carry).

Damien
Car Yards AVG TD Rec Yards TD Games Starts
226 1056 4.67 14 65 427 7 19 14

Kareem
245 1102 4.49 10 40 449 8 14 14

Honestly, even with a bad IOL line, his injury and all, Damien holds his own in an impressive way here. I think Kareem wouldn’t have fared any better (if not a bit worse) than Damien with this line this season (especially after missing 8 games). The final thing to consider is that Andy Reid's offense asks RB's to offer different skillsets as the #1. Effective blocking, chipping and checkdowns out of the backfield become paramount, while being able to carry the rock when asked becomes even more important. Williams played a #1 back in Andy's scheme to perfection in the playoffs. Funnily enough, he tends to take guff around here for his stats against the Titans, but this is unfair. Damien ended up getting the ball 7 times in a critical 7 minute drive in the 3rd quarter against the Titans that allowed the Chiefs to turn the Titans game against them. The Titans were so petrified against the pass that Andy trusted Damien to be able to carry the rock against the Titans - and it worked. While his final line doesn't jump out (17 carries, 45 yards, 1 TD w' 5 catches, 44 yards) Damien had around a 4 YPC against a stout running D until the last drive, when the Titans were able to load up the box to stop him (he had 4 carries for -5 yards on that drive, tanking his stats).

What's unarguable, though, is how dominant he was in the Super Bowl. Baldy breaks it down far better than I can here.

#Chiefs #DamienWilliams saved his best for the big stage. He did it all in #SBLIV and what a day he had. #BaldysBreakdowns pic.twitter.com/vA2di1T8Ar

— Brian Baldinger (@BaldyNFL) February 4, 2020

At the end of the day, with Williams history I think you draft a #2 back to wait in the wings in case Damien can't carry the load after a full season -- but everyone should be saying "Kareem who?" after the postseason. Damien was that good, really. We don't go all the way without him giving us a franchise RB performance. For that reason I think you go all in on shoring up the Interior O Line while grabbing a RB to develop in the mid-later rounds (an Andy Reid special).

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Mecca

You can make that argument but we are in no position to be using 1st round picks on guards or spending lots of money on them, you can't have elite players everywhere.

I'd settle for above average.

I don't think you need to spend a first on a G, but I'd consider Ruiz at #32 depending on what's on the board in CB's at that spot.

A stud C for the next ten years would be a good investment to help keep Mahomes upright. Reiter's pretty ****in' lousy.

I'd prefer something like this:

1)CB
2)OL
3)LB
4)RB

depending on how the board shakes out.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

Is it Damon Huard, Brodie Coyle or the Oline?

Is that supposed to contain some insight?

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I'd settle for above average.

I don't think you need to spend a first on a G, but I'd consider Ruiz at #32 depending on what's on the board in CB's at that spot.

A stud C for the next ten years would be a good investment to help keep Mahomes upright. Reiter's pretty ****in' lousy.

I'd prefer something like this:

1)CB
2)OL
3)LB
4)RB

depending on how the board shakes out.

And we're in that spot because we can't afford to pay a top priced center...

If we go into the year with this RB group I'd be concerned, 2 of them have shown to get injured and the other showed nothing when he played.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

1) Charles was one of the best broken play runners I ever saw. That's a VERY unusual ability. Walter Payton, Barry Sanders kind of shit. Very few RB's are great at that.

2) No, Hunt didn't run behind roughly the same line. This is a myth I keep seeing repeated. Morse>Reiter. LDT pre injury>LDT post injury. Wylie is a dumpster fire. So 2/3 of your interior line is different and/or lesser than their former self.

Damien also had Rankin and Wiz, who played well for us. But we knew going into this season that Damien was fighting a nagging injury and I think that played a big role in his struggles for awhile.

We all miss having a bigger, stronger agile back like Hunt who can drag defenders 3 or 4 yards up the middle while having the agility to make people miss and breakaway. Damien just doesn’t have that hard nosed mentality like Hunt did to run through LB’s and break a ton of tackles.

That’s why so many of us like Zach Moss. I would take a look at him if you haven’t already. He remains a lot of us of Hunt.

[Chiefspants]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

Is it Damon Huard, Brodie Coyle or the Oline?

Is it DeShaun Watson or Patrick Mahomes we should have taken at #10?

[Dunerdr]

As far as upgrades its really not an either or. We need both unless Darwin is the answer and we just didnt see it. In reality i'd be thrilled if we went went any number of routes in the draft. If they feel like a Dalvin Cook is there in the second get him, if a Hunt/ Kamara is there in the third get him. I'd like to see a 3rd or 4th round IOL improvement. The real issue is the lack of bodies at corner right now. I feel like that has us hamstrung a little.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Damien also had Rankin and Wiz, who played well for us. But we knew going into this season that Damien was fighting a nagging injury and I think that played a big role in his struggles for awhile.

We all miss having a bigger, stronger agile back like Hunt who can drag defenders 3 or 4 yards up the middle while having the agility to make people miss and breakaway. Damien just doesn’t have that hard nosed mentality like Hunt did to run through LB’s and break a ton of tackles.

That’s why so many of us like Zach Moss. I would take a look at him if you haven’t already. He remains a lot of us of Hunt.

Dude it’s not like Rankin played a ton of games for us. And if you’ll notice....our running game was better when Wiz was starting.....which would mean that offensive line play is more important.

[Coochie liquor]

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

Is it Damon Huard, Brodie Coyle or the Oline?

Alex Smith just needs more weapons.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I'd agree with this caveat:

If we didn't draft or sign a RB I wouldn't be particularly worried. Williams/Williams/Thompson could be fine. I would prefer we took a RB somewhere in round 3-4 though.

If we didn't draft or sign an upgrade anywhere on the interior of the line, I would be very, very concerned.

I agree, Williams x2 and Thompson are probably adequate this year. Reiter isn't a world beater, but as long as LDT is playing next to him, he's OK. Our bigger need is a LG. The line play dramatically improved when LDT came back and Wiz was inserted. Unfortunately, Wiz isn't on the team now.

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by RunKC

OL was worse when Charles was in this offense. Didn’t matter.

OL was roughly the same when Hunt was in this offense. Wasn’t a problem.

There’s your answer

Here's my problem with this kind of reasoning, though. The same can be done for the other side.

The Chiefs were a much more effective rushing team the 2nd half of 2015 than they were in the first half. The first few games featured spot starts from Fulton and Jah Reid, and Mitch Morse was just a rookie who had played OT at Mizzou just the previous year. Keep in mind we went into that season thinking that Ben Grubbs was going to solidify the LG position, and we abruptly cut him during the season when we realized he was a broke dick by that point. The OL was in shambles, and the Chiefs went 1-5 to start the year.

They were a much more effective running team in the second half because the line gelled together. Andy had a grand experiment of trying out Zach Fulton at C in the preseason, and that's what started him down the path of earning that huge contract from Houston. Largely because he was really freaking good when he started for Morse, who, if I remember correctly, was playing through an injury before he went on IR.

Great OL plus bad RB doesn't work. Great OL plus average RB is usually pretty good. Average OL plus great RB is usually great (like it was with Kareem Hunt). Bad OL plus great RB usually depends on the situation, but it's typically a recipe for an unreliable running game that's okay against bad defenses and horrible against great defenses.

And then you add in the wrinkle that we have Andy freaking Reid. His offenses, especially Mahomes, no matter how you slice it, will always pass to set up the run and not the other way around.

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

Fatty first... Although I trust Veach to do what's best.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

aye.

but which do you feel is MOST pressing, I guess is the question.

Ol. Invariably

EDIT: I should clarify. OL gives you a better margin. You can roll with who the hell ever and be effective if the line is OK. Our problem is who the hell ever can’t stay on the field. Regardless, if there are holes all it really takes is the vision to see them. On the other hand if you roll with shit OL it takes a truly special back (Charles) to be even remotely effective.