I am not a fan of Veach's "tier" approach.

[kcbubb]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Ronnie Perkins.

And, yeah, Basham.

The pick of Bolton tells you that the chiefs liked taco and danna more than perkins and basham. Or liked Bolton better than hitchens in comparison with Perkins or basham vs taco and danna. The chiefs just didn’t like basham or Perkins. Kaindoh has a higher ceiling than either player. He’s huge and long and has an elite 10 yard split. He’s a project but they picked him earlier than anticipated so maybe they see something there. They clearly liked kaindoh in the 4th better than basham or Perkins in the 2nd. Kaindoh is also more of a spags fit.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by kcbubb

The pick of Bolton tells you that the chiefs liked taco and danna more than perkins and basham. Or liked Bolton better than hitchens in comparison with Perkins or basham vs taco and danna. The chiefs just didn’t like basham or Perkins. Kaindoh has a higher ceiling than either player. He’s huge and long and has an elite 10 yard split. He’s a project but they picked him earlier than anticipated so maybe they see something there. They clearly liked kaindoh in the 4th better than basham or Perkins in the 2nd. Kaindoh is also more of a spags fit.

I don't think it tells you any of that.

They may have liked Perkins and Basham better than anyone on the roster and any other edge rushers remaining but didn't have them valued as high as Bolton and Humphrey. It's not like LB and OC weren't also future needs at a minimum.

I personally valued both over Bolton but not over Humphrey, albeit Perkins was a fringe fit here. I'd have likely taken Humphrey over any of them at 58 which takes Basham out of play regardless. If it came to Bolton vs Perkins, that would have been an awfully rough choice to make but I likely would have gone Perkins. It's easy for me to look in retrospect and say Basham and Humphrey but the draft doesn't run that way and you have to think who you would have taken first. Hopefully, Veach comes out the smart one and we all look back and think he made great choices.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by kccrow

I don't think it tells you any of that.

They may have liked Perkins and Basham better than anyone on the roster and any other edge rushers remaining but didn't have them valued as high as Bolton and Humphrey. It's not like LB and OC weren't also future needs at a minimum.

I personally valued both over Bolton but not over Humphrey, albeit Perkins was a fringe fit here. I'd have likely taken Humphrey over any of them at 58 which takes Basham out of play regardless. If it came to Bolton vs Perkins, that would have been an awfully rough choice to make but I likely would have gone Perkins. It's easy for me to look in retrospect and say Basham and Humphrey but the draft doesn't run that way and you have to think who you would have taken first. Hopefully, Veach comes out the smart one and we all look back and think he made great choices.

Listen, I like Perkins too, but he's not a great fit as a 4-3 DE. No real length, no real beef. He's a 3-4 rushbacker. Here in KC, he'd have been a situational pass rusher, and that's not a great value fit. You have to keep the situation in mind as well as you're looking at players and not just fall in love with the kid regardless of scheme fit.

I like Basham alright, but in all honesty, I see him as a high floor, low ceiling player. I seriously doubt he's ever a difference maker type, but will likely be a solid if unspectacular DE. I don't mind rolling the dice later on a guy like Kaindoh, who COULD be a monster player OR could be selling insurance in three years. We've got enough Mike Dannas.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Listen, I like Perkins too, but he's not a great fit as a 4-3 DE. No real length, no real beef. He's a 3-4 rushbacker. Here in KC, he'd have been a situational pass rusher, and that's not a great value fit. You have to keep the situation in mind as well as you're looking at players and not just fall in love with the kid regardless of scheme fit.

I like Basham alright, but in all honesty, I see him as a high floor, low ceiling player. I seriously doubt he's ever a difference maker type, but will likely be a solid if unspectacular DE. I don't mind rolling the dice later on a guy like Kaindoh, who COULD be a monster player OR could be selling insurance in three years. We've got enough Mike Dannas.

One could argue that Bolton is a similar high floor, low ceiling type player.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by O.city

One could argue that Bolton is a similar high floor, low ceiling type player.

That's a bigger thing at MLB than it is at edge. When you're drafting in the 2nd round and are trying to replace Anthony Hitchens, high floor is something you want.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

That's a bigger thing at MLB than it is at edge. When you're drafting in the 2nd round and are trying to replace Anthony Hitchens, high floor is something you want.

Exactly.

Kaindoh might not have Basham’s high floor, but he definitely has more upside. You can’t find a LB like that in the 4th.

The thing people are missing about Basham is that he’s a guy that you would have to slide inside on passing downs to get the most out of his pass rush abilities.

We don’t need that. We have Jones, Reed, and Wharton. We need a true edge rusher.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by O.city

One could argue that Bolton is a similar high floor, low ceiling type player.

I think Spags was sick and tired of putting Neimann and Sorenson at LB. In our 2 losses to the Raiders and Bucs we got our shit pushed in at the 2nd level.

In the SB we didn’t have Willie Gay, and to their credit Wilson (goal line stop) and Hitchens (forced incompletion in end zone) made plays but if you watch the 2nd half of the SB Brady literally went to the line and audibled.

Is Sorenson in as a LB? Okay we’re running.
Is Neimann in but with Sorenson to put 8 in the box? Okay we’re doing play action.

We had nothing in the middle of the field. It was by far our biggest weakness heading into the draft. They just could not expose Ben Neimann and/or Sorenson at LB anymore.

Add that our biggest competition for a ring requires us to defend the middle of the field and the run. Browns, Ravens and Bucs.

I wasn’t a big Bolton fan but I completely understand the pick

[O.city]

Originally Posted by RunKC

I think Spags was sick and tired of putting Neimann and Sorenson at LB. In our 2 losses to the Raiders and Bucs we got our shit pushed in at the 2nd level.

In the SB we didn’t have Willie Gay, and to their credit Wilson (goal line stop) and Hitchens (forced incompletion in end zone) made plays but if you watch the 2nd half of the SB Brady literally went to the line and audibled.

Is Sorenson in as a LB? Okay we’re running.
Is Neimann in but with Sorenson to put 8 in the box? Okay we’re doing play action.

We had nothing in the middle of the field. It was by far our biggest weakness heading into the draft. They just could not expose Ben Neimann and/or Sorenson at LB anymore.

Add that our biggest competition for a ring requires us to defend the middle of the field and the run. Browns, Ravens and Bucs.

I wasn’t a big Bolton fan but I completely understand the pick

I'm fine with it. I've been banging the "ILB who can play all 3 downs" drum for a while. I'm hopeful Bolton can do it. Dude has it all mentally, physically we'll just have to wait and see.

I'm excited with it. Alot of our problems against the run IMO, are that we have to play subpackages so much.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by kccrow

I don't think it tells you any of that.

They may have liked Perkins and Basham better than anyone on the roster and any other edge rushers remaining but didn't have them valued as high as Bolton and Humphrey. It's not like LB and OC weren't also future needs at a minimum.

I personally valued both over Bolton but not over Humphrey, albeit Perkins was a fringe fit here. I'd have likely taken Humphrey over any of them at 58 which takes Basham out of play regardless. If it came to Bolton vs Perkins, that would have been an awfully rough choice to make but I likely would have gone Perkins. It's easy for me to look in retrospect and say Basham and Humphrey but the draft doesn't run that way and you have to think who you would have taken first. Hopefully, Veach comes out the smart one and we all look back and think he made great choices.

I agree with this.

We got Humphrey at 63 which nobody thought could happen. If they would have taken Humphrey at 58, Basham was gone.

I think they got good value and that's what they cared about. Not that they're in love with the guys already on the roster.

[kcbubb]

Originally Posted by kccrow

I don't think it tells you any of that.

They may have liked Perkins and Basham better than anyone on the roster and any other edge rushers remaining but didn't have them valued as high as Bolton and Humphrey. It's not like LB and OC weren't also future needs at a minimum.

I personally valued both over Bolton but not over Humphrey, albeit Perkins was a fringe fit here. I'd have likely taken Humphrey over any of them at 58 which takes Basham out of play regardless. If it came to Bolton vs Perkins, that would have been an awfully rough choice to make but I likely would have gone Perkins. It's easy for me to look in retrospect and say Basham and Humphrey but the draft doesn't run that way and you have to think who you would have taken first. Hopefully, Veach comes out the smart one and we all look back and think he made great choices.

The chiefs didn’t pick basham or Perkins bc they don’t fit the chiefs d. They would be situational players and just not a good fit. That’s why basham and Perkins weren’t picked and why kaindoh was. The chiefs don’t pass on a DE that they really liked bc they liked Bolton. Bolton’s a solid pick but you don’t pass over DE that you really like for Bolton.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by kcbubb

The chiefs didn’t pick basham or Perkins bc they don’t fit the chiefs d. They would be situational players and just not a good fit. That’s why basham and Perkins weren’t picked and why kaindoh was. The chiefs don’t pass on a DE that they really liked bc they liked Bolton. Bolton’s a solid pick but you don’t pass over DE that you really like for Bolton.

Again, no guarantee of that IMO. I feel as though you're jumping to unjustified, absolute conclusions based on zero evidence. We can only deal in possibilities. The Chiefs may have thought they wanted both Bolton and Basham but felt Bolton was the better-graded player and that Basham had the better chance to slip to 63. There really is no absolute here other than what Veach and company thought.

I can feel very confident that Basham was on their board because he absolutely fits the defense. It's more of a matter of where on that board he was. It doesn't mean he didn't fit KC's D by any stretch, and he is definitely not going to be playing inside. To top it off, he's a player that was universally graded higher than Kaindoh by 3 rounds. He's a guy that is a better overall player than what they started last year in all phases at LDE and his ability to rush the passer from the edge is severely understated. He likely plays the 5T DE position in the 4-3 Under in Indy since he isn't a pure speed, Wide 9 rusher, that would man the Leo there. Think more along the lines of Seattle drafting LJ Collier, albeit he was taken way too early and is was not as good coming out as Basham. He's a solid DE at 270-275 and showed the ability to live in the backfield. After all, he did have 22.5 tackles for a loss on 85.5 tackles with 15 sacks in his last 19 games along with 7 forced fumbles. The dude is a player on the edge. I honestly think KC made a big mistake passing on Basham for Bolton, even if I do like Bolton and what he brings to the table. Like I said though, we don't know where exactly he was on their board. I feel pretty good that it was higher than Kaindoh by a healthy margin but I can't say absolutely. That said, there is a reason Basham went 2 rounds earlier.

As for Perkins, there is a good chance he wasn't on their board but I'm not sure it is absolute in terms of schematic fit and could be more about the issues he had that led to the suspension and other information gathered in the process. In terms of schematic fit, he's basically the same size as Frank Clark (definitely not the 271 he was at the combine but closer to about 250) so, again, I feel like just outright saying its schematic fit is making a big assumption. He's a first-round caliber producer that fell to the end of the 3rd, so there's something there other than skill for every team but I don't know what it is and neither do you. I give you a lot more leeway on the assumption he's not a fit here than with Basham.