*** Official Youth, High School, College and International Wrestling Thread ***

[rico]

Originally Posted by Brianfo

Ryan Morningstar is an assistant coach. Need I say more. That's where the problem starts. He's never been aggressive ever. He has my respect as he was a multiple all-American but boring as hell to watch. I'm with you Rico. Push the action. That's how I'm coaching my boys.

Ryan Morningstar was a highly anticipated wrestler from Lisbon coming in to high school...I think he won 5-6 AAU state titles as a youth wrestler. That along with the fact that his father was well-known for his accolades made him a pretty big freakin' deal coming in to high school.

Guess who he wrestled in his FIRST EVER wrestling match in high school? My brother...and it was at Lisbon High School.

Guess who won??? My brother. I was banging my chest and hootin' and hollerin' like a freaking caveman during that match. I probably looked like a fool. I think my brother won something like 6-3 or 6-4... it was somewhat of a barn-burner. Granted, my brother was the upperclassmen...and was a Junior who had been a runner-up at state as a Freshman and Sophomore (so close to winning it both years...ugh)...and was also the eventual 2A state champion that year... It was still a big win for him. Lisbon people mention it to me to this day. My brother and M* met up like 6 times over the years and M* won only 1 match...which was the last time they ever wrestled each other when my brother was a Senior. He beat him by 1 point with a last second crotch lift at Freestyle State that year...Justin was pretty pissed.

I am not sure when Morningstar became as defensive as he ultimately ended up building a reputation for being in college. He wasn't real offensive and/or stallish in high school or youth. He was definitely difficult to score points on, but he did have an offense that he went to and did well with it... I just think when the competition got stiffer at the D1 level for him, that's basically when he went into full-fledged defensive mode. He went from being one of Iowa's most highly touted and respected high school wrestlers to a wrestler who had some success for the Hawkeyes, but as most of us know, became mostly known as defensive/stallish.

[Brianfo]

Originally Posted by Rudy lost the toss

Disagree. **** all things Iowa wrestling.

Iowa wrestling is where it's at.

[GloryDayz]

God I love wrestling!!! Why can't THIS be a professional sport??!!

[GloryDayz]

Wow!!!!!!!!!!! Nice job...

**** OU AND OSU!!!

[GloryDayz]

I hope this cowboy gets stuck!

[GloryDayz]

Great tournament...

[chiefscafan]

Wow are anyone of you watching the crowd tonight is incredible
Posted via Mobile Device

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by chiefscafan

Wow are anyone of you watching the crowd tonight is incredible
Posted via Mobile Device

???

[chiefscafan]

Sorry wrong thread

[rico]

Before I dig that up...I'm just going to throw this out there...Cary Kolat is the raddest wrestler ever. Youtube some of his technique clips....some of the coolest shit in the world. I love his variation of a standing cradle.

[rico]

Article from 2/13 Des Moines Register. Enough of a wake up call I felt we should all read it so I cheated, copied and pasted it for everyone.

Andy Hamilton: The real problem with college wrestling
By Andy Hamilton
February 12, 2014


When a few coaches fired keyboard-tapped arguments back and forth a couple weeks ago, college wrestling's great dual debate reignited on Twitter.

But while program leaders and fans continue to contend the merits of a proposal that would add a dual tournament scoring system to the current NCAA team championship format, the larger problem remains overlooked.

College wrestling is becoming tedious. Scoring is down. Inactivity is up.

It's a dangerous combination for a sport that dodged the Olympic death sentence it received 365 days ago. Yet college wrestling seemingly isn't learning from the missteps that jeopardized the sport at its highest level.

Aside from its general arrogance, total disregard for public relations and cockamamie rules, the biggest sin committed by FILA -- wrestling's international governing body -- was turning a blind eye to the product on the mat. When international wrestling became hard to watch and harder to understand, spectator growth became virtually impossible.

"I'm not so sure some of that Olympic wrestling hasn't had an effect on how people wrestle at all levels," legendary former Iowa coach Dan Gable said. "And that's one of the reasons why we were getting kicked out of the Olympics -- a lack of action, a lack of scoring."

Sure, it's been the wildest regular season in recent memory with a series head-shaking upsets and there have been a few wildly entertaining duals, too. But how many potential fans clicked to the next channel after an action-less period and never bothered coming back to see the drama that unfolded in Minnesota's win Sunday against Penn State?

The fact of the matter is this: When Oklahoma State scores two takedowns in an entire dual meet and a couple weeks later Iowa follows it up with five, there's a problem. And it's not a problem isolated to the two most storied programs in the sport.

Check out the scores each weekend, and you'll see it's a Division I issue. The first three bouts of last week's dual between Pittsburgh and Virginia Tech produced a grand total of 12 points. A week earlier, Michigan and Ohio State wrestlers tangled for 29 straight minutes without a takedown or near-fall in three consecutive tiebreaker decisions.

"I've seen 0-0 matches in the first period -- and quite often -- from the No. 1 guy in America at pretty much every weight except 165 and 184," Iowa coach Tom Brands said a couple weeks ago. "That's not exciting wrestling. It's boring."

As Brands mentioned, Penn State is an outlier with David Taylor and Ed Ruth and boosting the entertainment value for college wrestling's most exciting lineup. There are individuals on other teams, too, who make it well worth the time it takes to set the DVR and fast forward until they take the mat.

But unless you're in tune with the sport's top entertainers, you can doze off in a sea of scoreless periods. It's becoming more and more of a tactical sport with three-point stances, wrestling on a knee and backing to the edge, all strategies designed to slow an opponent in the neutral position.

What's happening in many cases is neither wrestler takes a chance because scoring is scarce and mistakes are harder to overcome. It's a system that rewards defense rather than risk.

"That's not what our sport is looking for," Gable said. "Our sport is looking for growth; our sport is looking for entertainment; our sport is looking to get into the top core sports in the Olympic Games. And we're not going to do it by standing around and looking at each other."

Wrestling has essentially evolved into a game of who can camouflage stalling the best while the riding-time clock ticks.

"It's hard to watch top(-position) wrestling right now, in my eyes," Northern Iowa coach Doug Schwab said. "There's not a whole lot of emphasis right now being put on turning."

Look, I love wrestling, and I'll watch any dual I can find in the TV listings. But I nearly fell asleep recently watching a match when one guy rode another for more than six minutes without remotely coming close to a turn.

It's a complex issue and a vicious cycle. Referees don't want to interject themselves into the outcome of matches, so stalling calls have generally gone by the wayside. Wrestlers want to take the fast path to victory, and coaches are teaching them methods to succeed in the current environment.

So action grinds to a halt, spectators watch a deteriorating product on the mat and potential fans look for something on another channel.

If people who are passionate about wrestling aren't thrilled with what they see, then what do casual viewers think?

Meanwhile, the duals debate rages on after two years of bickering and forming allegiances on each side. It's like arguing over which shade of carpet to install as rain pours through the roof.

"Our product is not where it needs to be," Gable said, "to make advancements, to be able to get sponsorship, to be able to get viewers, to be able to get people to walk in and say, 'What is this? This is great.' "

It once was, though, and it still is at times. But until the product is more entertaining on every college mat in the country, changing the national championship format won't solve wrestling's biggest issue.

But, hey, at least the carpet might look nice when the roof caves in.

Andy Hamilton is a three-time national wrestling writer of the year. Help him get to 6,000 Twitter followers, @Andy_Hamilton.

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by rico

Article from 2/13 Des Moines Register. Enough of a wake up call I felt we should all read it so I cheated, copied and pasted it for everyone.

Andy Hamilton: The real problem with college wrestling
By Andy Hamilton
February 12, 2014


When a few coaches fired keyboard-tapped arguments back and forth a couple weeks ago, college wrestling's great dual debate reignited on Twitter.

But while program leaders and fans continue to contend the merits of a proposal that would add a dual tournament scoring system to the current NCAA team championship format, the larger problem remains overlooked.

College wrestling is becoming tedious. Scoring is down. Inactivity is up.
.
.
.

One thing I've always been concerned about is riding time. I've never seen a more blatant "stalling" in my life that's not called exactly what it is, stalling.

I'd also contend that "control" needs to be looked at. Lower the bar for what is "control" (or loss thereof), and you'll see the match change a lot. Holding on to a guy's ankle as he drags you across the mat is hardly "control", and it's only "control" because of how they call it. Change that call, and you'll see not only a point awarded, but two wrestlers getting back at it pretty quickly...

I'm less concerned about what's being called or adjudicated as a take-down, but it's a kissing cousin to the disadvantaged wrestler having broken control. I'd take a closer look at that if they're ttying to break the current trend of people calling the sport stale or boring (and getting it booted from the Olympics.

And last..... If I were king for a day, I'd have NO problem awarding a point to the wrestler who had his feet in contact with the starting line "the most" or the wrestler who was in the inner-circle the most. Whatever it takes to award the wrestler who doesn't spend too much time fleeing! I know it's far-fetched, but they've gotta do something!

[Brianfo]

Originally Posted by GloryDayz

One thing I've always been concerned about is riding time. I've never seen a more blatant "stalling" in my life that's not called exactly what it is, stalling.

I'd also contend that "control" needs to be looked at. Lower the bar for what is "control" (or loss thereof), and you'll see the match change a lot. Holding on to a guy's ankle as he drags you across the mat is hardly "control", and it's only "control" because of how they call it. Change that call, and you'll see not only a point awarded, but two wrestlers getting back at it pretty quickly...

I'm less concerned about what's being called or adjudicated as a take-down, but it's a kissing cousin to the disadvantaged wrestler having broken control. I'd take a closer look at that if they're ttying to break the current trend of people calling the sport stale or boring (and getting it booted from the Olympics.

And last..... If I were king for a day, I'd have NO problem awarding a point to the wrestler who had his feet in contact with the starting line "the most" or the wrestler who was in the inner-circle the most. Whatever it takes to award the wrestler who doesn't spend too much time fleeing! I know it's far-fetched, but they've gotta do something!

Riding time is a skill that should be awarded. I agree that with some it's a stall tactic, but if you can't get out from underneath, you don't deserve to win. End of argument. If you get rode like a mule you lose!

Why do you think 90% of wrestlers choose down??

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by Brianfo

Riding time is a skill that should be awarded. I agree that with some it's a stall tactic, but if you can't get out from underneath, you don't deserve to win. End of argument. If you get rode like a mule you lose!

Why do you think 90% of wrestlers choose down??

They need the point if they can get it...

I'm not lost on the point, but it's boring and keeps people from liking the sport, and it flies in the face of "action".

And at a minimum they need to make the standing ride a call for neutral. Keep the disadvantaged wrestler down and I can agree that you have to have been a wrestler to understand it. But if you let the guy get up and all you are, essentially, is a zit on his ass, well I have HUGE issues with that.

And back to the holding on to an ankle while you get dragged, and that's worse...

And last, you get one chance to have the circle's edge save you, after that it's fleeing... I get the tactic, I used it, but it's wrong and not a good thing.. Reward the guy who stay in the middle and invites a match, and penalize the guy who's willing to run out of bounds to save his ass..