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Old 03-29-2023, 08:39 AM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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***Official 2023 STL Cardinals Thread ***
2023 thread. Walker makes the roster. I'll update the rosters and opening day lineup when its official

2023 Opening Day Lineup
Spoiler!

2022 Opening Day roster.
Spoiler!

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year, here are some of the historical threads going back to 2006.
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Old 07-09-2023, 12:52 PM   #871
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Signing Contreras is the perfect example of why Mo sucks ass. Its his FA record all balled up in one perfect package.

Edit: That should say Matz pitching to Contreras is the perfect example.
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Old 07-09-2023, 06:56 PM   #872
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Old 07-09-2023, 07:16 PM   #873
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It's obvious to me the Cardinals just don't understand what the draft's all about.

https://youtu.be/rZxNeFLuY98
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Old 07-10-2023, 11:29 AM   #874
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It's obvious to me the Cardinals just don't understand what the draft's all about.

https://youtu.be/rZxNeFLuY98
Did you want them to draft one of the many high upside HS shortstops available?

I was listening to MLB Network Radio and they said Davis would have been Arizona's center fielder but Hi Corbett Field's left field is expansive, so he played there instead.

From everything I gather, he's actually a good athlete with good pop but the main concern again is the swing and miss. That one issue kept him from going higher. But he did make better swing decisions as a junior.
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Old 07-10-2023, 11:43 AM   #875
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It's obvious to me the Cardinals just don't understand what the draft's all about.

https://youtu.be/rZxNeFLuY98
Nah, I think Davis is a really good pick.

Strong approach, plus power, someone who can actually PLAY outfield and his tools are such that he should be a relatively quick riser. Joshua Baez is looking like a slow burn and he probably won't get here until 2026, if at all. Victor Scott is looking really nice as a long-term CFer but I think he's still in A+ and he's likewise a way off. Besides, he complements Davis really well.

Our outfield is secretly just as bad as our pitching, if not worse. We're playing IFers out there and getting them hurt as a result of it. Edman and Donovan, both GG IFers, have been hurt trying to play outfield this season and Noot got hurt BECAUSE Edman is trying to play outfield.

And unlike our pitching staff, the system is ROUGH for outfield. The pitching at least has McGreevy, Graceffo, Hence and Hjerpe. That's 4 solid prospects for pitching - who do we have in the OF? And we don't have a ton of young talent out there either - the only big league outfielder we have is Lars Nootbaar; the rest are DH types or IFers we're cramming into the OF so we can force guys like DeJong into the lineup.

McGreevy is as polished and advance a pitching prospect as you'll find in the middle of the 1st and he's going to take 3-4 years to get here. The only guy on the board who might fast-track is Waldrep and Waldrep has fastball command issues that suggest he may take a little longer. But even on the fast side, we're talking 3 years.

We're going to need OF help BADLY by the time anyone from this draft can contribute. And the system has far better organizational depth among pitchers than OFers.

This is one of the few things I've seen from STL to suggest they have SOME idea what's going on. I think they got this one exactly right.
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Old 07-10-2023, 11:46 AM   #876
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Did you want them to draft one of the many high upside HS shortstops available?

I was listening to MLB Network Radio and they said Davis would have been Arizona's center fielder but Hi Corbett Field's left field is expansive, so he played there instead.

From everything I gather, he's actually a good athlete with good pop but the main concern again is the swing and miss. That one issue kept him from going higher. But he did make better swing decisions as a junior.

'Decisions' wasn't the problem. He had a hole in his swing; specifically inside.

He appears to have made a mechanical adjustment as a JR that really closed that hole up in a BIG way. He cut his in-zone whiff rate in half.

He's always had really good strike zone judgment but even when he was making the right decision, sometimes he missed anyway - at least prior to this season. This season, OTOH, he made enormous strides there and did so without losing the game power.

That's exactly what you want to see for a development arc for a guy with massive raw power and good strike zone feel. He just needed to convert that raw power into additional game power by tightening up his hit tool. He did exactly that.

Again - this is a good pick. It's the pick I'd have made, in fact.
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Old 07-10-2023, 05:57 PM   #877
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Nah, I think Davis is a really good pick.

Strong approach, plus power, someone who can actually PLAY outfield and his tools are such that he should be a relatively quick riser. Joshua Baez is looking like a slow burn and he probably won't get here until 2026, if at all. Victor Scott is looking really nice as a long-term CFer but I think he's still in A+ and he's likewise a way off. Besides, he complements Davis really well.

Our outfield is secretly just as bad as our pitching, if not worse. We're playing IFers out there and getting them hurt as a result of it. Edman and Donovan, both GG IFers, have been hurt trying to play outfield this season and Noot got hurt BECAUSE Edman is trying to play outfield.

And unlike our pitching staff, the system is ROUGH for outfield. The pitching at least has McGreevy, Graceffo, Hence and Hjerpe. That's 4 solid prospects for pitching - who do we have in the OF? And we don't have a ton of young talent out there either - the only big league outfielder we have is Lars Nootbaar; the rest are DH types or IFers we're cramming into the OF so we can force guys like DeJong into the lineup.

McGreevy is as polished and advance a pitching prospect as you'll find in the middle of the 1st and he's going to take 3-4 years to get here. The only guy on the board who might fast-track is Waldrep and Waldrep has fastball command issues that suggest he may take a little longer. But even on the fast side, we're talking 3 years.

We're going to need OF help BADLY by the time anyone from this draft can contribute. And the system has far better organizational depth among pitchers than OFers.

This is one of the few things I've seen from STL to suggest they have SOME idea what's going on. I think they got this one exactly right.
What’s you talking about Willis? We have so many Faberge eggs in our system they have ulcers trying to find playing time for all those eggs.
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Old 07-10-2023, 08:18 PM   #878
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'Decisions' wasn't the problem. He had a hole in his swing; specifically inside.
Mike Ferrin mentioned better swing decisions as one of the factors in Davis' 2023 improvement. He does a college baseball podcast, announced the college baseball postseason for ESPN and he lives in Arizona, so I feel he had good intel.
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Old 07-10-2023, 08:19 PM   #879
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Randy Arozarena winning the home run derby will go over really well in St. Louis.
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Old 07-10-2023, 09:07 PM   #880
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Mike Ferrin mentioned better swing decisions as one of the factors in Davis' 2023 improvement. He does a college baseball podcast, announced the college baseball postseason for ESPN and he lives in Arizona, so I feel he had good intel.
{shrug}

The numbers are out there. His approach is about the same as it ever was. He's simply making more contact.

Eyes can lie.

He's simply never struggled with his approach in any meaningful way. From what I can see, he was simply 'loud' with his hands and it was causing him to miss balls he shouldn't. He had something like a 20% swing/miss rate on pitches in the zone in his sophomore year. He cut that down to about 11% as a junior.

That's not really a swing decision issue - it's mechanics, IMO.
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Old 07-11-2023, 03:38 PM   #881
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Nah, I think Davis is a really good pick.

Strong approach, plus power, someone who can actually PLAY outfield and his tools are such that he should be a relatively quick riser. Joshua Baez is looking like a slow burn and he probably won't get here until 2026, if at all. Victor Scott is looking really nice as a long-term CFer but I think he's still in A+ and he's likewise a way off. Besides, he complements Davis really well.

Our outfield is secretly just as bad as our pitching, if not worse. We're playing IFers out there and getting them hurt as a result of it. Edman and Donovan, both GG IFers, have been hurt trying to play outfield this season and Noot got hurt BECAUSE Edman is trying to play outfield.

And unlike our pitching staff, the system is ROUGH for outfield. The pitching at least has McGreevy, Graceffo, Hence and Hjerpe. That's 4 solid prospects for pitching - who do we have in the OF? And we don't have a ton of young talent out there either - the only big league outfielder we have is Lars Nootbaar; the rest are DH types or IFers we're cramming into the OF so we can force guys like DeJong into the lineup.

McGreevy is as polished and advance a pitching prospect as you'll find in the middle of the 1st and he's going to take 3-4 years to get here. The only guy on the board who might fast-track is Waldrep and Waldrep has fastball command issues that suggest he may take a little longer. But even on the fast side, we're talking 3 years.

We're going to need OF help BADLY by the time anyone from this draft can contribute. And the system has far better organizational depth among pitchers than OFers.

This is one of the few things I've seen from STL to suggest they have SOME idea what's going on. I think they got this one exactly right.
This is actually very well thought out, and quite persuasive. I do worry if his mechanics will be able to hold, because I think about it from a golf perspective where the flaws you have when you first learn the game never truly leave. I also think about guys who "fix" their swings like Chris Davis did with the hoop drill, only for it to be a fleeting improvement. I'm also not of the belief that they need fast movers through the system, as I think any hope for a good 2024 team is shot. I'd favor stripping away every asset with over three years of service time so they can actually remake the team instead of cobbling together mediocre squads that get by due to a bad division.
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Old 07-11-2023, 03:48 PM   #882
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This is actually very well thought out, and quite persuasive. I do worry if his mechanics will be able to hold, because I think about it from a golf perspective where the flaws you have when you first learn the game never truly leave. I also think about guys who "fix" their swings like Chris Davis did with the hoop drill, only for it to be a fleeting improvement. I'm also not of the belief that they need fast movers through the system, as I think any hope for a good 2024 team is shot. I'd favor stripping away every asset with over three years of service time so they can actually remake the team instead of cobbling together mediocre squads that get by due to a bad division.
A fast mover means 2025 and like you, that's the EARLIEST I think this team might be even sneaking back to respectability.

And a lot of that may ride on the arm of Tink Hence and development of Masyn Winn/Jordan Walker. Because Goldschmidt (when he's inevitably foolishly extended) and likely even Arenado won't be guys that can carry the weight for a contender at that point, IMO.

Goldy will be too old and Nolan's swing is just so damn violent; I still think there are back issues in the making there.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how Mozeliak let this staff get to this. It's old, it's ineffective, it's expensive and there's no staying power to it whatsoever. But somehow, some way, Liberatore, Thompson, Hence, Hjerpe, McGreevy and Graceffo are going to have to form 3/5ths of a starting rotation in 2 years for this team to matter.

And by then, you could see a mid-season callup for someone like Davis in 2025 and if you continue to get development from Scott, you could see a pretty exciting pair out there by 2026.
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Old 07-11-2023, 04:48 PM   #883
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A fast mover means 2025 and like you, that's the EARLIEST I think this team might be even sneaking back to respectability.

And a lot of that may ride on the arm of Tink Hence and development of Masyn Winn/Jordan Walker. Because Goldschmidt (when he's inevitably foolishly extended) and likely even Arenado won't be guys that can carry the weight for a contender at that point, IMO.

Goldy will be too old and Nolan's swing is just so damn violent; I still think there are back issues in the making there.

I cannot for the life of me figure out how Mozeliak let this staff get to this. It's old, it's ineffective, it's expensive and there's no staying power to it whatsoever. But somehow, some way, Liberatore, Thompson, Hence, Hjerpe, McGreevy and Graceffo are going to have to form 3/5ths of a starting rotation in 2 years for this team to matter.

And by then, you could see a mid-season callup for someone like Davis in 2025 and if you continue to get development from Scott, you could see a pretty exciting pair out there by 2026.
Just my opinion but I feel that they can only be realistic contenders in 25 if they trade Goldy for an arm and let Walker try 1st base at the big league level. The rotational prospects are not great and they need a young guy with team control to not just eat innings but win games too.
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Old 07-11-2023, 04:51 PM   #884
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SportsCenter had a segment on trading Nolan Arenado. They had Yankees and Phillies as the best fits.
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Old 07-11-2023, 04:53 PM   #885
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SportsCenter had a segment on trading Nolan Arenado. They had Yankees and Phillies as the best fits.
I would hate to see them trade Nolan but hold on to Goldy.
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