The Last Dance

[Sure-Oz]

Originally Posted by BWillie

I doubt they touch on that. It was a de facto punishment though. The NBA was pumping full speed ahead, at a level of popularity never achieved before. It was punishment for gambling. His dad was also murdered because he owed bookies some money, and he just decided he wasn't going to pay them because he's Michael Jordan.

So he's the reason his dad died? I assumed he left cause his dad died. Didn't know much about gambling

[dj56dt58]

Originally Posted by BWillie

I doubt they touch on that. It was a de facto punishment though. The NBA was pumping full speed ahead, at a level of popularity never achieved before. It was punishment for gambling. His dad was also murdered because he owed bookies some money, and he just decided he wasn't going to pay them because he's Michael Jordan.

except none of this is true

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by dj56dt58

except none of this is true

Not a single word.

[BWillie]

Originally Posted by dj56dt58

except none of this is true

I actually am a staunch supporter of being able to be a heavy gambler despite any job or public image one has. But if you lose you have to pay your debts.

[eDave]

Originally Posted by BWillie

I doubt they touch on that. It was a de facto punishment though. The NBA was pumping full speed ahead, at a level of popularity never achieved before. It was punishment for gambling. His dad was also murdered because he owed bookies some money, and he just decided he wasn't going to pay them because he's Michael Jordan.

They did.

I never knew Pippen quit like that. Holy cow.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by eDave

They did.

I never knew Pippen quit like that. Holy cow.

That was a very emotional time.

So disappointed in Scotty, so proud Tony stepped up.

Nice to find out after all these years that they squashed it before the night was even over.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by eDave

They did.

I never knew Pippen quit like that. Holy cow.

Back in the 80's and 90's, I wasn't into college or NBA basketball, other than being a casual observer, until maybe Jordan's final season with the Bulls. The only thing I knew about him, other than quitting the Bulls for AA ball, was that he was biggest sports star in the world, with his face absolutely everywhere.

From an outsider's point of view, it's an interesting look into "greatness" and after watching 8 episodes, he's not unlike people in other categories of fame, whether it's the "greatest" actor in the world or the "greatest" singer or guitarist in the world - they're all pretty much what I would consider, assholes.

For whatever reason, our society frowns upon everyday people acting like assholes but if you're "great" at or in something, it's waved off. It's an interesting phenomena...

[eDave]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Back in the 80's and 90's, I wasn't into college or NBA basketball, other than being a casual observer, until maybe Jordan's final season with the Bulls. The only thing I knew about him, other than quitting the Bulls for AA ball, was that he was biggest sports star in the world, with his face absolutely everywhere.

From an outsider's point of view, it's an interesting look into "greatness" and after watching 8 episodes, he's not unlike people in other categories of fame, whether it's the "greatest" actor in the world or the "greatest" singer or guitarist in the world - they're all pretty much what I would consider, assholes.

For whatever reason, our society frowns upon everyday people acting like assholes but if you're "great" at or in something, it's waved off. It's an interesting phenomena...

Yea. To me it's a given. Nice guys finish last. Guitar players are assholes in general though.

[Gadzooks]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Back in the 80's and 90's, I wasn't into college or NBA basketball, other than being a casual observer, until maybe Jordan's final season with the Bulls. The only thing I knew about him, other than quitting the Bulls for AA ball, was that he was biggest sports star in the world, with his face absolutely everywhere.

From an outsider's point of view, it's an interesting look into "greatness" and after watching 8 episodes, he's not unlike people in other categories of fame, whether it's the "greatest" actor in the world or the "greatest" singer or guitarist in the world - they're all pretty much what I would consider, assholes.

For whatever reason, our society frowns upon everyday people acting like assholes but if you're "great" at or in something, it's waved off. It's an interesting phenomena...

I'd replace being an "asshole" with being "demanding". I find, when you work with high end professionals in any situation, they're going to demand those around them hold their same high standard. If that makes them look like an "asshole", so be it.

I've got a good buddy from my old job who's at the top of his field and a great guy to go out with for beers, but , boy oh boy, he was demanding when you're working with him.

IMO - Jordan used practice to demand that his team-mates be able to play against the adversity they'd see game time. It was also probably practice to test out his best shit talk tactics against his adversaries. win-win.

It's kind of like Van Halen's "No brown M&Ms rider". Were they assholes or demanding?

For those yougin's who don't know, here's David Lee Roth rambling about the brown M&Ms rider, (decent story):

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Gadzooks

I'd replace being an "asshole" with being "demanding". I find, when you work with high end professionals in any situation, they're going to demand those around them hold their same high standard. If that makes them look like an "asshole", so be it.

Calling people "****ing flaming pillowbitergots" and saying things like "I want the money in your pocket to be MY money" is not "demanding", it's being an asshole.

Jordan earning $36 million while his running mate is earning $2 million is not being demanding, it's him being a asshole. Not giving a shit about anyone else but yourself, is being a narcissistic asshole. If Jordan was ruler of a country, he'd be a totalitarian dictator.

As long as you're the "greatest" at something, that behavior seems to be all fine and dandy, but that doesn't fly in the real world for "normal" people.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Calling people "****ing flaming pillowbitergots" and saying things like "I want the money in your pocket to be MY money" is not "demanding", it's being an asshole.

Jordan earning $36 million while his running mate is earning $2 million is not being demanding, it's him being a asshole. Not giving a shit about anyone else but yourself, is being a narcissistic asshole. If Jordan was ruler of a country, he'd be a totalitarian dictator.

As long as you're the "greatest" at something, that behavior seems to be all fine and dandy, but that doesn't fly in the real world for "normal" people.

Jordan was lucky he went to a perfect situation. Imagine him pulling that shit in Portland?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Jordan was lucky he went to a perfect situation. Imagine him pulling that shit in Portland?

Imagine him trying to do that today, barely 20 years after he retired?

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

saying things like "I want the money in your pocket to be MY money" is not "demanding", it's being an asshole.

Not really. It's competitive intimidation. Trash talking. I've said something similar while playing pool tournaments or gambling, even against my own teammates. As Jordan said, if you can't handle that kind of pressure in practice, you'll crumble when in the playoffs against the Knicks or whoever. He was preparing his teammates for the battles to come.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Jordan earning $36 million while his running mate is earning $2 million is not being demanding, it's him being a asshole.

Jordan didn't make Pippen take that crappy contract. There wasn't a salary cap; Pippen could've negotiated a better deal, but he chose not to. Not Jordan's fault. That was completely on Pippen not valuing himself highly enough.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Not giving a shit about anyone else but yourself, is being a narcissistic asshole.

MJ's driving force was to win at any costs. Is that self-centered? Maybe. Or maybe it was just being utterly focused on a single goal.

Did he lead his team to 6 championships? Are any of those teammates complaining that they rode MJs cape to 6 rings?

Every player interviewed was grateful to Jordan for not only the opportunity, but also how he led them.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Not really. It's competitive intimidation. Trash talking. I've said something similar while playing pool tournaments or gambling, even against my own teammates. As Jordan said, if you can't handle that kind of pressure in practice, you'll crumble when in the playoffs against the Knicks or whoever. He was preparing his teammates for the battles to come.

It wasn't "trash talking", it was physical and mental intimidation.

Professionals don't need to be physically and mentally intimidated in order to perform at their highest level. That's an outdated 50's and 60's model that's been proven false time and time again.

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Jordan didn't make Pippen take that crappy contract. There wasn't a salary cap; Pippen could've negotiated a better deal, but he chose not to. Not Jordan's fault. That was completely on Pippen not valuing himself highly enough.

He didn't help Pippen, either. Pippen took the contract offered because he didn't really have any alternatives. If he was injured, his playing days could and he'd have little to show from it.

Originally Posted by Megatron96

MJ's driving force was to win at any costs. Is that self-centered? Maybe. Or maybe it was just being utterly focused on a single goal.

If you're phsyically and mentally abusing someone in order to win a champsionship, you're an asshole, plain and simple. Bullying is no longer acceptable in today's society.

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Did he lead his team to 6 championships? Are any of those teammates complaining that they rode MJs cape to 6 rings?

Every player interviewed was grateful to Jordan for not only the opportunity, but also how he led them.

Note that you said "every player interviewed". To date, the documentary hasn't shown every second of every interview with his former teammates, so you have no idea how each of them feel.

Documentaries are made in the Edit Bay. They're not historical documents.