Mike Tomlin gets 3-yr extension from Steelers.

[scho63]

Just breaking now.

Is it me or do the Steelers feel like they are morphing to the Bears from the last 30 years?

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I think that’s largely true but is it much different from Andy Reid’s career in Philly? The track record seems remarkably similar to his time in Philly where he just never consistently found it again after losing mcnabb. Having an above qb goes such a long way. And a bad one can sink a coach as elite as bellichick.

Without a doubt Reid is a class above harbaugh who’s probably a notch above tomlin. I just think a lot of tomlins recent bad rep is tied to bad QBs including a great one who played way way too long. And he’s in a way higher league than, say, Jeff fisher

Yeah, Tomlin is a lot better than JF, no question. Again, I personally think Tomlin is a good HC, just think Harbaugh is a level up on him. Probably if I lined them up, there's only a handful (or little more) of HCs I'd take ahead of Tomlin.

[ThaVirus]

Originally Posted by Wallymo

The Chiefs sucking forever had nothing to do with drafting football jesus. Instead, it required the 27th pick, a third-rounder and 2018's first-rounder. To hell with "paying your dues" for a QB -- take your shot no matter where your current draft slot if you believe in the player.

You’re right. I was more so referring to the fact that the Chiefs never took that route. We were mediocre for a long time and never bothered to risk the biscuit and take the QB and we suffered for decades. “Well if we play good defense, run the ball and get a couple lucky turnovers we have a shot at beating ______”.

You make a good point, though. The Steelers don’t have to be terrible to find their QBotf.

Originally Posted by Megatron96

here's the thing about Harbaugh: he took a Flacco-led offense (and the best defense the NFL might've ever seen, granted) and won a SB. Then he drafted a project in Lamar, revamped the entire offense to suit his extremely athletic but mentally under-developed QB, and went right back to the playoffs.


Tomlin's success basically went into the dumpster the moment Rothlisberger retired.


If I had to choose, as a GM or an owner, I doubt many would pick Tomlin over Harbaugh. Tomlin will give you a non-losing season. Harbaugh will get your team into the playoffs, even with a RB playing QB. Just saying.

You’re talking about the 2012 Ravens defense? No chance in hell that was one of the best ever. It’s legit not even the best defense Baltimore has assembled in its own history.

The Ravens GM drafted Lamar. Harbaugh also didn’t revamp the offense, though I’ll give him credit for delegating and promoting Roman in order to do so and maximize Lamar’s abilities.

I feel like you’d have the opposite opinion if the Steelers GM had drafted Lamar instead.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

You’re right. I was more so referring to the fact that the Chiefs never took that route. We were mediocre for a long time and never bothered to risk the biscuit and take the QB and we suffered for decades. “Well if we play good defense, run the ball and get a couple lucky turnovers we have a shot at beating ______”.

You make a good point, though. The Steelers don’t have to be terrible to find their QBotf.



You’re talking about the 2012 Ravens defense? No chance in hell that was one of the best ever. It’s legit not even the best defense Baltimore has assembled in its own history.

The Ravens GM drafted Lamar. Harbaugh also didn’t revamp the offense, though I’ll give him credit for delegating and promoting Roman in order to do so and maximize Lamar’s abilities.

I feel like you’d have the opposite opinion if the Steelers GM had drafted Lamar instead.

Actually I think I was thinking about the 2008 defense. But whatever, I didn't mean that the 2012 defense was the best ever, just that during his tenure as HC they had one of the best defenses in the NFL. Even still, in 2012 that was a pretty good defense. Good enough to help that team win a SB anyway. Certainly that offense wasn't going to win a SB by itself.


And that's what I meant about revamping the offense; by bringing in Roman. Obviously Harbaugh wasn't going to do it by himself; he's not an offensive guru. But he understood pretty quickly that Lamar wasn't going to be able to run a traditional NFL offense, and took steps, large and sweeping steps, to change the offense to suit his new and very raw QB, correct?


And no, I probably wouldn't have that opinion if PIT drafted Lamar, because I highly doubt that Tomlin would've done what Harbaugh did. I think Tomlin would've tried to make Lamar operate a traditional offense, and ultimately benched him in favor of someone that could. Basically, what Tomlin has been doing since Rothlisberger's retirement with his merry-go-round approach to his QB room.

[ThaVirus]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Actually I think I was thinking about the 2008 defense. But whatever, I didn't mean that the 2012 defense was the best ever, just that during his tenure as HC they had one of the best defenses in the NFL. Even still, in 2012 that was a pretty good defense. Good enough to help that team win a SB anyway. Certainly that offense wasn't going to win a SB by itself.

Funny you mention 2008. That year they lost in the AFCCG to the Tomlin Steelers.

And that's what I meant about revamping the offense; by bringing in Roman. Obviously Harbaugh wasn't going to do it by himself; he's not an offensive guru. But he understood pretty quickly that Lamar wasn't going to be able to run a traditional NFL offense, and took steps, large and sweeping steps, to change the offense to suit his new and very raw QB, correct?

Yep. We’ve just gotta be clear on the distinction. Some HCs serve as their own coordinator on one side of the ball and some coaches serve as HC and GM.

And no, I probably wouldn't have that opinion if PIT drafted Lamar, because I highly doubt that Tomlin would've done what Harbaugh did. I think Tomlin would've tried to make Lamar operate a traditional offense, and ultimately benched him in favor of someone that could. Basically, what Tomlin has been doing since Rothlisberger's retirement with his merry-go-round approach to his QB room.

You’re just guessing, though. The Ravens went 6-1 with Lamar as the starter in 2018 before promoting Roman to cater the offense to Lamar’s strengths. I think it’s just as likely that Jackson excel in Pittsburgh as Baltimore.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

Funny you mention 2008. That year they lost in the AFCCG to the Tomlin Steelers.



Yep. We’ve just gotta be clear on the distinction. Some HCs serve as their own coordinator on one side of the ball and some coaches serve as HC and GM.



You’re just guessing, though. The Ravens went 6-1 with Lamar as the starter in 2018 before promoting Roman to cater the offense to Lamar’s strengths. I think it’s just as likely that Jackson excel in Pittsburgh as Baltimore.

We're all just guessing. This is all hypothetical.


But the fact remains that Harbaugh went to great lengths to completely change the offense. The obvious conclusion is that he realized that Lamar wasn't going to be able to run a more traditional NFL offense so he made the change. And as I recall, before he did that, he was in some danger of being fired. At least he was on the hot seat, according to both of my friends that are BAL fans.


Like I said, just my opinion, and it's not like I've followed Lamar's career real closely. However, we've seen him vs. the Chiefs several times now, and it's a fact that every time Lamar has been forced to become a pocket passer, every time he's been forced to abandon that RPO heavy offense, he's struggled. Has he improved as a QB since he was drafted? Yes, some. If he had a minor lower body injury that took away his ability to run, would I rank him above Kirk Cousins? Not a chance.

[ThaVirus]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

We're all just guessing. This is all hypothetical.


But the fact remains that Harbaugh went to great lengths to completely change the offense. The obvious conclusion is that he realized that Lamar wasn't going to be able to run a more traditional NFL offense so he made the change. And as I recall, before he did that, he was in some danger of being fired. At least he was on the hot seat, according to both of my friends that are BAL fans.


Like I said, just my opinion, and it's not like I've followed Lamar's career real closely. However, we've seen him vs. the Chiefs several times now, and it's a fact that every time Lamar has been forced to become a pocket passer, every time he's been forced to abandon that RPO heavy offense, he's struggled. Has he improved as a QB since he was drafted? Yes, some. If he had a minor lower body injury that took away his ability to run, would I rank him above Kirk Cousins? Not a chance.

Idk. I’m just shocked that people believe a coach who led his team to 9-8 and 10-7 seasons with Kenny Pickett in the toughest division in football couldn’t do better if you swapped Pickett for Lamar Jackson. Jackson was 6-1 under Morningwheg, 39-15 under Roman, and 13-3 under Monken. He would have been good anywhere and if you pair him up with a good coach like Tomlin, I bet people would feel differently about the Tomlin vs Harbaugh debate.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

Idk. I’m just shocked that people believe a coach who led his team to 9-8 and 10-7 seasons with Kenny Pickett in the toughest division in football couldn’t do better if you swapped Pickett for Lamar Jackson. Jackson was 6-1 under Morningwheg, 39-15 under Roman, and 13-3 under Monken. He would have been good anywhere and if you pair him up with a good coach like Tomlin, I bet people would feel differently about the Tomlin vs Harbaugh debate.

you're citing season results. I'm talking about performance.


Yes, in 2018 Lamar finished his season with a 6-1 record. But he also posted a 58% completion%. 6 TDs and 3 INTs over 170 attempts, so 28.3 pass attempts per TD. A success% of 43.5%. 42.6 QBR (well below average) and a Passer rating of 84.5, also below average.

And I haven't even posted his numbers in the playoffs, which are significantly worse. Won't get into all the nitty gritty, but in 6 playoff games, Lamar is 2-4, has thrown just 6 TDs in those 6 appearances, as well as 6 INTs, to go along with a 57% completion%. And so on.


Yes, Lamar can win a lot of regular season games based on his athletic ability, with a great defense, but there are plenty of statlines other than final season results that say he's not a great QB. That he needs a fair amount of help to be as successful as he's been.

Anyway, obviously this is all hypothetical, but I just don't see Tomlin deciding to change his entire offense to fit Lamar. Based just on his recent history, it looks like Tomlin would try to get Lamar to run the offense they already have in place.

We'll never know, but that's how it looks to me.

[ThaVirus]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

you're citing season results. I'm talking about performance.


Yes, in 2018 Lamar finished his season with a 6-1 record. But he also posted a 58% completion%. 6 TDs and 3 INTs over 170 attempts, so 28.3 pass attempts per TD. A success% of 43.5%. 42.6 QBR (well below average) and a Passer rating of 84.5, also below average.

And I haven't even posted his numbers in the playoffs, which are significantly worse. Won't get into all the nitty gritty, but in 6 playoff games, Lamar is 2-4, has thrown just 6 TDs in those 6 appearances, as well as 6 INTs, to go along with a 57% completion%. And so on.


Yes, Lamar can win a lot of regular season games based on his athletic ability, with a great defense, but there are plenty of statlines other than final season results that say he's not a great QB. That he needs a fair amount of help to be as successful as he's been.

Anyway, obviously this is all hypothetical, but I just don't see Tomlin deciding to change his entire offense to fit Lamar. Based just on his recent history, it looks like Tomlin would try to get Lamar to run the offense they already have in place.

We'll never know, but that's how it looks to me.

Well ignoring rushing contributions when you’re talking about Lamar Jackson is a bit disingenuous. He was also a rookie in 2018 so that’s kinda normal.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

Well ignoring rushing contributions when you’re talking about Lamar Jackson is a bit disingenuous. He was also a rookie in 2018 so that’s kinda normal.

I'm not interested in Lamar's ability to run when considering his ability to play QB. I'm interested in his ability to throw a pass. To read a defense. To make adjustments at the line presnap as well as during the play. If I wanted to examine how a player runs, I'd check out CMC or some other RB.


The question here is what kind of QB is Lamar? And the answer is kind of average, unless he's running, in which case he's not really a QB anymore; he's a RB that throws the ball 15-20 times a game.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

The question here is what kind of QB is Lamar? And the answer is kind of average, unless he's running, in which case he's not really a QB anymore; he's a RB that throws the ball 15-20 times a game.

Pretty much.

And his ability to effectively drive down the field in the playoffs is not good. Not vs. good teams with good defenses.

He's a great fantasy QB - Horrible playoff QB.

[ThaVirus]

This has evolved into a debate about Lamar Jackson.

You said Tomlin is a good coach and just a step below Harbaugh. That’s close enough for me.

[ChiefsFanatic]

Originally Posted by O.city

Harbaugh in Baltimore has been a similar HC, he's just got Lamar now.



I don't know if that's an indictment or a good thing on him though.

Harbaugh has 2 Super Bowls, and he was there from the beginning.

John Harbaugh does seem to underachieve, but he also had to deal with a Patriots dynasty and now a Chiefs dynasty.

I actually think he could pull and Andy Reid, and be even more successful at his next job. If he doesn't get to the SB this year, both he and the Ravens should at least discuss moving on from each other. Sometimes, good head coaches just stay in one place too long.

If he stays, he needs to just go all-in on either a running offense with Lamar getting 20+ carries a game, or hiring the next McVay and a top notch offensive staff and get TF out of their way, and see if Lamar can be a real QB.

As it is now, they are just stuck in between those, and it doesn't make anyone better on offense.

[ThaVirus]

Originally Posted by ChiefsFanatic

Harbaugh has 2 Super Bowls, and he was there from the beginning.

John Harbaugh does seem to underachieve, but he also had to deal with a Patriots dynasty and now a Chiefs dynasty.

Harbaugh’s got one Super Bowl win as a head coach. I’d also like to point out that Tomlin also had to deal with the Patriots and Chiefs dynasties.

If he stays, he needs to just go all-in on either a running offense with Lamar getting 20+ carries a game, or hiring the next McVay and a top notch offensive staff and get TF out of their way, and see if Lamar can be a real QB.

As it is now, they are just stuck in between those, and it doesn't make anyone better on offense.

This is actually a good point.

Did Harbaugh actually hinder Lamar’s development by catering their run-heavy offense around his playing style?

I’m sure we’ll never know but it is a possibility.