Yeesh - Alec Baldwin just plopped into a world of hurt

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by KCUnited

Apologies if this has been covered but was the entire gun loaded with live ammo, or a combo of dummy ammo with 1 live round, or empty except one live round?

Seems there could be a bit of unfortunate luck that the live round was the one queued up unless he pulled the trigger a time or two before while practicing his draw. Has foul play been completely ruled out?

I don't think we've heard for sure. I believe that it came out that there were a few guns on a table. The AD grabbed the gun in question, said "cold gun," and handed it to Baldwin for the scene. The details beyond that have yet to be reported, so all we can do is come up with a hypothesis about what happened:

- The crew went out and used the guns to play around with target practice. This is probably a failure on the entire operation for allowing this to happen at all with guns that were going to be used for the film.
- They (presumably) unloaded the guns and put them on the prop table, but at least one round didn't get unloaded. This is probably a failure on the armorer for not quadruple checking that all of the guns were properly unloaded.
- The AD grabbed the gun in question and didn't actually check it before declaring it cold and handing it over. This is an abysmal failure as the last line of defense. Maybe he just looked at the round from the rear and couldn't tell the difference, but regardless I have no idea how anyone could ever say "cold gun" without being absolutely, 100% sure that the gun was indeed cold.

At least that's how it seems like it probably went down to me.

[jdubya]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I don't think we've heard for sure. I believe that it came out that there were a few guns on a table. The AD grabbed the gun in question, said "cold gun," and handed it to Baldwin for the scene. The details beyond that have yet to be reported, so all we can do is come up with a hypothesis about what happened:

- The crew went out and used the guns to play around with target practice. This is probably a failure on the entire operation for allowing this to happen at all with guns that were going to be used for the film.
- They (presumably) unloaded the guns and put them on the prop table, but at least one round didn't get unloaded. This is probably a failure on the armorer for not quadruple checking that all of the guns were properly unloaded.
- The AD grabbed the gun in question and didn't actually check it before declaring it cold and handing it over. This is an abysmal failure as the last line of defense. Maybe he just looked at the round from the rear and couldn't tell the difference, but regardless I have no idea how anyone could ever say "cold gun" without being absolutely, 100% sure that the gun was indeed cold.

At least that's how it seems like it probably went down to me.

And lastly if I am the actor, I open the action and declare the weapon safe for myself.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by jdubya

And lastly if I am the actor, I open the action and declare the weapon safe for myself.

I still maintain that no one should EXPECT an actor to do so, but I don't at all disagree that best practice would be for the actor to check it themselves, especially if the crew was out shooting live rounds earlier that day.

[jdubya]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I still maintain that no one should EXPECT an actor to do so, but I don't at all disagree that best practice would be for the actor to check it themselves, especially if the crew was out shooting live rounds earlier that day.

I have zero experience with movie sets but the most basic of firearm safety is one should consider every firearm is loaded until you see otherwise. But I agree that nobody would EXPECT Baldwin to have that much common sense.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by jdubya

And lastly if I am the actor, I open the action and declare the weapon safe for myself.

Just one quick technical note. If, as has been suggested, this was a revolver - that would effectively require the actor empty and re-load the gun. In which case, why have an armorer and an AD?

At a point someone has to be willing to trust the people responsible.

But man, I really like the point Baby Lee made. If someone handed you a gun and said 'Cold Gun' and asked you to point it at a spouse or child, would you do it without double-checking? No, you absolutely would not. I mean I've heard Baldwin's voicemails and HE might - but a normal human being wouldn't.

And if he's treating his cinematographer differently than he would a loved one in that situation, that sure suggests some level of indifference.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

But man, I really like the point Baby Lee made. If someone handed you a gun and said 'Cold Gun' and asked you to point it at a spouse or child, would you do it without double-checking? No, you absolutely would not. I mean I've heard Baldwin's voicemails and HE might - but a normal human being wouldn't.

To be fair, I'm not sure I'd be willing to point a real gun directly at another person no matter what the circumstances. I still have no idea why they didn't have him aim off to the side a bit just out of an abundance of caution.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaFace

To be fair, I'm not sure I'd be willing to point a real gun directly at another person no matter what the circumstances. I still have no idea why they didn't have him aim off to the side a bit just out of an abundance of caution.

Like I said - typically they do.

And Baldwin is an experienced actor. I can't give you the man's catalogue here, but he shot the shit out of that cook in Hunt for Red October so he's done some work with guns on sets before.

He messed up. I just can't come up with a situation where that's NOT the case. But as I said this morning, the issue becomes one of the reasonably foreseeable consequences of that mistake. I can't see any jury determining that a once in a generation outcome was a foreseeable consequence of that decision.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Like I said - typically they do.

And Baldwin is an experienced actor. I can't give you the man's catalogue here, but he shot the shit out of that cook in Hunt for Red October so he's done some work with guns on sets before.

He messed up. I just can't come up with a situation where that's NOT the case. But as I said this morning, the issue becomes one of the reasonably foreseeable consequences of that mistake. I can't see any jury determining that a once in a generation outcome was a foreseeable consequence of that decision.

Funny you should mention that scene. The actors are not in the frame together when Baldwin pulls the trigger. The only time you see Baldwin pointing the gun he doesn't actually fire, so that weapon is probably a dummy.

The scene seems continuous because it's a great, well-edited film, and we forget that it's actors on a set and not the hero and the villain in the missile bay of a nuclear sub.

I just rewatched the scene from the Godfather where Michael kills Sollozzo and the police captain. Even in that scene, Pacino never directly discharges the revolver in his hand at either actor when they're in the same shot. When Sollozzo is hit you see the squib on his forehead go and the spray of fake blood from behind his head, but no muzzle flash from the revolver. And when Michael shoots McCluskey, when you see him pull the trigger and there is a muzzle flash, both times the camera is focused on Pacino and Sterling Hayden is not in the shot. I had never realized that before.

Seems likely that in both these famous scenes the guns with blanks weren't fired at anybody; it just seemed like they were.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by DaFace

To be fair, I'm not sure I'd be willing to point a real gun directly at another person no matter what the circumstances. I still have no idea why they didn't have him aim off to the side a bit just out of an abundance of caution.

Nerf gun yes, real gun no.

[KCUnited]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I don't think we've heard for sure. I believe that it came out that there were a few guns on a table. The AD grabbed the gun in question, said "cold gun," and handed it to Baldwin for the scene. The details beyond that have yet to be reported, so all we can do is come up with a hypothesis about what happened:

- The crew went out and used the guns to play around with target practice. This is probably a failure on the entire operation for allowing this to happen at all with guns that were going to be used for the film.
- They (presumably) unloaded the guns and put them on the prop table, but at least one round didn't get unloaded. This is probably a failure on the armorer for not quadruple checking that all of the guns were properly unloaded.
- The AD grabbed the gun in question and didn't actually check it before declaring it cold and handing it over. This is an abysmal failure as the last line of defense. Maybe he just looked at the round from the rear and couldn't tell the difference, but regardless I have no idea how anyone could ever say "cold gun" without being absolutely, 100% sure that the gun was indeed cold.

At least that's how it seems like it probably went down to me.

My initial thought when this broke, without knowing anything about prop guns or control protocols in place, was that someone likely took it shooting and didn't empty it. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be many other logical explanations other than foul play.

But man, that storm gets even more perfect if there was just one live round in just one of the guns. Which I guess becomes less random if the gun is unique to his character and one of the more desirable guns to fire if you have the opportunity. Kind of like swinging Excalibur while sweeping up the set after everyone goes home for the night. I assume it will be disclosed at some point after the investigation. My morbid curiosity would like to know.