The Last Dance

[eDave]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Back in the 80's and 90's, I wasn't into college or NBA basketball, other than being a casual observer, until maybe Jordan's final season with the Bulls. The only thing I knew about him, other than quitting the Bulls for AA ball, was that he was biggest sports star in the world, with his face absolutely everywhere.

From an outsider's point of view, it's an interesting look into "greatness" and after watching 8 episodes, he's not unlike people in other categories of fame, whether it's the "greatest" actor in the world or the "greatest" singer or guitarist in the world - they're all pretty much what I would consider, assholes.

For whatever reason, our society frowns upon everyday people acting like assholes but if you're "great" at or in something, it's waved off. It's an interesting phenomena...

Yea. To me it's a given. Nice guys finish last. Guitar players are assholes in general though.

[Gadzooks]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Back in the 80's and 90's, I wasn't into college or NBA basketball, other than being a casual observer, until maybe Jordan's final season with the Bulls. The only thing I knew about him, other than quitting the Bulls for AA ball, was that he was biggest sports star in the world, with his face absolutely everywhere.

From an outsider's point of view, it's an interesting look into "greatness" and after watching 8 episodes, he's not unlike people in other categories of fame, whether it's the "greatest" actor in the world or the "greatest" singer or guitarist in the world - they're all pretty much what I would consider, assholes.

For whatever reason, our society frowns upon everyday people acting like assholes but if you're "great" at or in something, it's waved off. It's an interesting phenomena...

I'd replace being an "asshole" with being "demanding". I find, when you work with high end professionals in any situation, they're going to demand those around them hold their same high standard. If that makes them look like an "asshole", so be it.

I've got a good buddy from my old job who's at the top of his field and a great guy to go out with for beers, but , boy oh boy, he was demanding when you're working with him.

IMO - Jordan used practice to demand that his team-mates be able to play against the adversity they'd see game time. It was also probably practice to test out his best shit talk tactics against his adversaries. win-win.

It's kind of like Van Halen's "No brown M&Ms rider". Were they assholes or demanding?

For those yougin's who don't know, here's David Lee Roth rambling about the brown M&Ms rider, (decent story):

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Gadzooks

I'd replace being an "asshole" with being "demanding". I find, when you work with high end professionals in any situation, they're going to demand those around them hold their same high standard. If that makes them look like an "asshole", so be it.

Calling people "****ing flaming pillowbitergots" and saying things like "I want the money in your pocket to be MY money" is not "demanding", it's being an asshole.

Jordan earning $36 million while his running mate is earning $2 million is not being demanding, it's him being a asshole. Not giving a shit about anyone else but yourself, is being a narcissistic asshole. If Jordan was ruler of a country, he'd be a totalitarian dictator.

As long as you're the "greatest" at something, that behavior seems to be all fine and dandy, but that doesn't fly in the real world for "normal" people.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Calling people "****ing flaming pillowbitergots" and saying things like "I want the money in your pocket to be MY money" is not "demanding", it's being an asshole.

Jordan earning $36 million while his running mate is earning $2 million is not being demanding, it's him being a asshole. Not giving a shit about anyone else but yourself, is being a narcissistic asshole. If Jordan was ruler of a country, he'd be a totalitarian dictator.

As long as you're the "greatest" at something, that behavior seems to be all fine and dandy, but that doesn't fly in the real world for "normal" people.

Jordan was lucky he went to a perfect situation. Imagine him pulling that shit in Portland?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Jordan was lucky he went to a perfect situation. Imagine him pulling that shit in Portland?

Imagine him trying to do that today, barely 20 years after he retired?

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

saying things like "I want the money in your pocket to be MY money" is not "demanding", it's being an asshole.

Not really. It's competitive intimidation. Trash talking. I've said something similar while playing pool tournaments or gambling, even against my own teammates. As Jordan said, if you can't handle that kind of pressure in practice, you'll crumble when in the playoffs against the Knicks or whoever. He was preparing his teammates for the battles to come.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Jordan earning $36 million while his running mate is earning $2 million is not being demanding, it's him being a asshole.

Jordan didn't make Pippen take that crappy contract. There wasn't a salary cap; Pippen could've negotiated a better deal, but he chose not to. Not Jordan's fault. That was completely on Pippen not valuing himself highly enough.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Not giving a shit about anyone else but yourself, is being a narcissistic asshole.

MJ's driving force was to win at any costs. Is that self-centered? Maybe. Or maybe it was just being utterly focused on a single goal.

Did he lead his team to 6 championships? Are any of those teammates complaining that they rode MJs cape to 6 rings?

Every player interviewed was grateful to Jordan for not only the opportunity, but also how he led them.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Not really. It's competitive intimidation. Trash talking. I've said something similar while playing pool tournaments or gambling, even against my own teammates. As Jordan said, if you can't handle that kind of pressure in practice, you'll crumble when in the playoffs against the Knicks or whoever. He was preparing his teammates for the battles to come.

It wasn't "trash talking", it was physical and mental intimidation.

Professionals don't need to be physically and mentally intimidated in order to perform at their highest level. That's an outdated 50's and 60's model that's been proven false time and time again.

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Jordan didn't make Pippen take that crappy contract. There wasn't a salary cap; Pippen could've negotiated a better deal, but he chose not to. Not Jordan's fault. That was completely on Pippen not valuing himself highly enough.

He didn't help Pippen, either. Pippen took the contract offered because he didn't really have any alternatives. If he was injured, his playing days could and he'd have little to show from it.

Originally Posted by Megatron96

MJ's driving force was to win at any costs. Is that self-centered? Maybe. Or maybe it was just being utterly focused on a single goal.

If you're phsyically and mentally abusing someone in order to win a champsionship, you're an asshole, plain and simple. Bullying is no longer acceptable in today's society.

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Did he lead his team to 6 championships? Are any of those teammates complaining that they rode MJs cape to 6 rings?

Every player interviewed was grateful to Jordan for not only the opportunity, but also how he led them.

Note that you said "every player interviewed". To date, the documentary hasn't shown every second of every interview with his former teammates, so you have no idea how each of them feel.

Documentaries are made in the Edit Bay. They're not historical documents.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

It wasn't "trash talking", it was physical and mental intimidation.

Professionals don't need to be physically and mentally intimidated in order to perform at their highest level. That's an outdated 50's and 60's model that's been proven false time and time again.

Maybe. We'll never know if those Bulls teams would've won 6 rings without MJ crafting those teams as he did. What we do know is that it worked. And just how do you know what works and doesn't with pro athletes? Some players need to be reined in, while others need to be turned loose. And so forth. The list of players that could've used a swift kick in the pants on a weekly basis in every sport is a very long and inglorious one . . .

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

He didn't help Pippen, either. Pippen took the contract offered because he didn't really have any alternatives. If he was injured, his playing days could and he'd have little to show from it.

Pippen has admitted several times in previous interviews years before this docu-series saw the light, that he took the contract he was offered because he came from poor beginnings and he was afraid that he might somehow get hurt and not be able to provide for his family, which was his ultimate concern. That's not on Jordan. And where is it written that it was Jordan's job to help Pippen with his contract negotiations?

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

If you're physically and mentally abusing someone in order to win a championship, you're an asshole, plain and simple. Bullying is no longer acceptable in today's society.

Oh for Pete's sake. Cry me a river. We're not talking about today. This was over 20 years ago. It wasn't called "bullying" back then. It was called "toughening up your teammates".

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Note that you said "every player interviewed". To date, the documentary hasn't shown every second of every interview with his former teammates, so you have no idea how each of them feel.

Documentaries are made in the Edit Bay. They're not historical documents.

I don't recall saying that this was a historical document. I don't recall using the word "historical" at all. Not in a single post to this thread, anyway. I don't recall saying every second was aired. I don't even recall saying every player that played on those teams. I pretty much said that every player we saw interviewed in the series . . . which is a subset of the total. I didn't even say that I knew how all of those players feel. I said that of the players we saw interviewed, they all seemed appreciative and grateful. Which are only a couple feelings, not every done they might've felt.

But they were significant enough feelings of gratitude for them to all express during their interviews which says something.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Maybe.

You're the worst kind of fan because you don't care if a superstar treats those around him like complete and utter shit. He cheated on his wife and treated everyone around him as if they were beneath him.

His post Bulls career has been a joke, which isn't surprising given how he treated people in the past. Who would want to play for that guy?

[sedated]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Jordan didn't make Pippen take that crappy contract. There wasn't a salary cap; Pippen could've negotiated a better deal, but he chose not to. Not Jordan's fault. That was completely on Pippen not valuing himself highly enough.

Pippen was one of my favorite players as a kid (I still have his jersey in my closet), but when the reason for taking a contract is "I needed the (long-term) security for my family", then that's what you give up in exchange. He chose not to gamble, and he got what he wanted. Ownership literally told him not to take the deal.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by sedated

Pippen was one of my favorite players as a kid (I still have his jersey in my closet), but when the reason for taking a contract is "I needed the (long-term) security for my family", then that's what you give up in exchange. He chose not to gamble, and he got what he wanted. Ownership literally told him not to take the deal.

Exactly. I forgot about that part. They told him not to take that deal.

Good catch.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Exactly. I forgot about that part. They told him not to take that deal.

Good catch.

Then why offer it? The answer is clear: To take advantage of him, plain and simple.

I hope that franchise never wins anything, for 100 years or more.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Back in the 80's and 90's, I wasn't into college or NBA basketball, other than being a casual observer, until maybe Jordan's final season with the Bulls. The only thing I knew about him, other than quitting the Bulls for AA ball, was that he was biggest sports star in the world, with his face absolutely everywhere.

From an outsider's point of view, it's an interesting look into "greatness" and after watching 8 episodes, he's not unlike people in other categories of fame, whether it's the "greatest" actor in the world or the "greatest" singer or guitarist in the world - they're all pretty much what I would consider, assholes.

For whatever reason, our society frowns upon everyday people acting like assholes but if you're "great" at or in something, it's waved off. It's an interesting phenomena...

As Catherine the Great said "winners can't be judged."

I don't agree with it. There have been great people who aren't assholes but in today's world, as long as you win you can get away with anything.