Vikings hire Rams Kevin O’ Connell

[ChiefsFan123456]

https://www.cbssports.com/

Interesting hire, it is going to be interesting to see how he does with the Vikings

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Shields68

The speculation was Harbaugh made some demands about roster control and personnel decisions that was turned down.

Pretty big balls walking into an interview w/ a new GM and telling him you effectively want his job as well.

I mean how do you not 'back channel' that sort of stuff through your representation without conducting a wholesale interview?

[Shields68]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

Most hiring managers (all aspects of life) need approval/buy-in from their boss before hiring someone. I sure as hell did (it was a pain in the ass. My micro-manager boss required extensive write-ups and long discussions of each candidate). The NFL is no different. No GM is making the offer to a coach without the owner signing off (in a traditional setup). If leadership structure is similar to the Chiefs - where both report to the owner/president directly - it's not even the GM making the offer.

No clue how the Vikings have it structured.

My post was really two separate thoughts. I don't think I conveyed that very well.

Thought 1. One can question why incredibly young assistants with little experience who happen to be white are getting jobs over similarly (or more) successful black assistants with similar (or more) experience in the NFL. Even if not overt racism, what is leading to O'Connells and Staleys getting jobs instead of Hamiltons or Bienemys?

Thought 2. Though it has a similar trait to some of the more questionable hires, the Vikings job does not stand out as a bad example. The hire was made with a minority GM in the room for the interviews, and said GM had a prior connection to the coach.

Thought 3 (which I didn't state). When a hire like O'Connell happens (over more qualified candidates that include more qualified/experienced minority candidates), if there isn't some diversity in the interview panel, I believe it's fair to question the way those interviews are being conducted and how the decision-making process is finalized.

It's less overt racism and more tribalism in play, IMO, in those situations. IE, you have a room full of middle-aged and older guys making the decision with no diversity of background, and they're more likely to gravitate to someone in the interview who is more like them.

You can question it all you want. But the fact is the Shanahan/McVay tree and offenses have shown success. Further a lot of success is with average qb's. Not hard to sell that success in a interview. Where a coach teaches a system it is something that can be replicated it is easier to sell. Not sure the BIll and Andy going over tapes and designing things to beat an opponent is as easily replicated.

[staylor26]

Supposedly Harbaugh told Michigan that this isn’t going to be an ongoing ordeal and that he’ll stay as long as they’ll have him.

Seems like he got the hint that the NFL for the most part doesn’t want him.

I mean, if the Raiders didn’t even give him an interview, that says a lot.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Ok, so we’ve established that it’s not happening in Minnesota.

So where is it happening?

I’m just so sick of people talking about racism like a boogeyman. If you’re so sure it’s happening then you must have an idea of where.

I’m not asking to be a dick, but if we’re ever going to solve the problem, we have to actually determine where the problem is.

If you just continue to talk about the problem like it’s the boogeyman, nothing will ever change.

So let’s get specific here.

Who are the racist teams/owners?

If you can’t answer that question, then how in the world are you so sure that it’s real and that it’s systemic?

I understand your point and agree. If you're going to ASK if racism (whether unconscious bias or purposeful and clear, outward racism) was a factor, you should also examine the situation, seek out the context, and continue the discussion from there.

Where is it happening?

That's difficult to speak on authoritatively. I acknowledge that. I'm not there in the rooms. I'm not covering the teams so I don't know what the search committees look like. It's hard to seek out the context.

I would ask what's going on in the Giants' organization and what led them to Joe ****ing Judge. A special teams coach from a coaching tree that has borne, largely, poisonous fruit. A guy who handled himself like an absolute buffoon in the media from day one. Brian Daboll is a super qualified and experienced guy, but why are they jumping to him before the interview process is even completed? From what I have gleaned from reporting on that organization, it's a non-diverse, old-school group making decisions.

I would ask what's going on in Houston. Why David Culley in the first place, and why he got canned so quickly? The loon they have running the show down there is a huckster wanna-be motivational speaker/preacher. Who is he bringing into the rooms with him? Are they yes men that group think with him?

[wachashi]

Originally Posted by staylor26

So let’s get specific here.

Who are the racist teams/owners?

It's pretty difficult to prove unconscious racial bias, even more so in specific hiring decisions.

If you're waiting for a current GM or owner to make a public statement similar to this one below before you believe racism exists in the NFL, then that's the wrong standard of proof.

It's a complex issue and I believe the NFL is taking the right steps for the most part. We've certainly made a lot of progress since 1987.

Insane Ted Koppel Nightline interview from 1987 asking Al Campanis why Black managers and general managers were virtually nonexistent in baseball….what Brian Flores is fighting with his lawsuit has been happening for ages in all major sports pic.twitter.com/LphejYKqKq

— Wu-Tang Is For The Children (@WUTangKids) February 2, 2022

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by wachashi

It's pretty difficult to prove unconscious racial bias, even more so in specific hiring decisions.

If you're waiting for a current GM or owner to make a public statement similar to this one below before you believe racism exists in the NFL, then that's the wrong standard of proof.

It's a complex issue and I believe the NFL is taking the right steps for the most part. We've certainly made a lot of progress since 1987.

Insane Ted Koppel Nightline interview from 1987 asking Al Campanis why Black managers and general managers were virtually nonexistent in baseball….what Brian Flores is fighting with his lawsuit has been happening for ages in all major sports pic.twitter.com/LphejYKqKq

— Wu-Tang Is For The Children (@WUTangKids) February 2, 2022

So you’re absolutely sure it’s happening still, and it’s systemic, but you have no idea where it’s happening?

I’m not saying it isn’t happening at all. I don’t think it’s a reach to say there might be 1 or 2 legitimately racist owners, but the issue here is whether there’s a couple bad apples or it’s systemic.

If you don’t feel it’s systemic, then I don’t think we are in a disagreement here.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by staylor26

So you’re absolutely sure it’s happening still, and it’s systemic, but you have no idea where it’s happening?

I’m not saying it isn’t happening at all. I don’t think it’s a reach to say there might be 1 or 2 legitimately racist owners, but the issue here is whether there’s a couple bad apples or it’s systemic.

If you don’t feel it’s systemic, then I don’t think we are in a disagreement here.

Except you’ve got guys like Marcellus who want hard proof. It isn’t going to happen.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by staylor26

So you’re absolutely sure it’s happening still, and it’s systemic, but you have no idea where it’s happening?

I’m not saying it isn’t happening at all. I don’t think it’s a reach to say there might be 1 or 2 legitimately racist owners, but the issue here is whether there’s a couple bad apples or it’s systemic.

If you don’t feel it’s systemic, then I don’t think we are in a disagreement here.

There's a difference between overt, outward, and willing/cognizant racism and unconscious racial bias, though.

I don't think many would argue that active and conscious racism is the issue. It's the unconscious bias of the people making decisions.

Honestly, I think the biggest thing to focus on is getting more minorities in front offices (and the NFL is doing this). That treats the real "symptom" or problem, and I don't think forcing a group of non-diverse decision makers to do token interviews of diverse candidates is the real solution.

Treat the root cause, not the outputs (or disease vs. symptoms).

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

There's a difference between overt, outward, and willing/cognizant racism and unconscious racial bias, though.

I don't think many would argue that active and conscious racism is the issue. It's the unconscious bias of the people making decisions.

Honestly, I think the biggest thing to focus on is getting more minorities in front offices (and the NFL is doing this). That treats the real "symptom" or problem, and I don't think forcing a group of non-diverse decision makers to do token interviews of diverse candidates is the real solution.

Treat the root cause, not the outputs (or disease vs. symptoms).

Fully agree here.

But so far those new black GMs have all hired white guys, and I honestly do not believe it’s because they aren’t allowed to hire a black guy. Just unfortunate.

I think we will see guys like Leftwitch, Ryans, Mayo, and Hamilton get jobs over the next couple years though, and I’m sure there will be more black GMs.

[RunKC]

I really like what the Vikings are doing

[wachashi]

There's never been a black owner in the NFL. There hadn't been a black GM until 2002. There's been 500 different coaches in the league's history, only 24 of them Black. And the vast majority of those (19 by my count) were hired after the year 2000.

I think those numbers are problematic and to a certain extent can be blamed on historical racial/power/political/financial dynamics. The "system" if you must call it that. Yeah, it's complicated and I understand calling it the boogeyman because there's not a clear-cut solution. It's a messy issue.

Unconscious racial bias exists in the NFL and negatively impacts Blacks more than others, but we've made significant progress in recent decades. That's it for me before this thread gets booted to DC.

Happy Black History Month

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

There's a difference between overt, outward, and willing/cognizant racism and unconscious racial bias, though.

I don't think many would argue that active and conscious racism is the issue. It's the unconscious bias of the people making decisions.

Honestly, I think the biggest thing to focus on is getting more minorities in front offices (and the NFL is doing this). That treats the real "symptom" or problem, and I don't think forcing a group of non-diverse decision makers to do token interviews of diverse candidates is the real solution.

Treat the root cause, not the outputs (or disease vs. symptoms).

You have to wonder if that plays some part of it. A lot of black players who don’t make the nfl may have grown up on the streets and don’t have the polish. It could mean that the talent is there but unrecognized. Could also mean that teams aren’t ready to lean into that personality. It’s been pretty much directly suggested that bieniemys personality may be rubbing some interviewers the wrong way. Nfl coaching images tend to be fairly robotic. Would many teams shy away from an otherwise brilliant coach who talks like the streets in their pressers? I think it’d make PR teams kind of uncomfortable.

[Chris Meck]

I love this guy!

He was awesome in King of Queens.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Fully agree here.

But so far those new black GMs have all hired white guys, and I honestly do not believe it’s because they aren’t allowed to hire a black guy. Just unfortunate.

I think we will see guys like Leftwitch, Ryans, Mayo, and Hamilton get jobs over the next couple years though, and I’m sure there will be more black GMs.

Very good chance demeco ryans would have gotten this job if he didn’t withdraw. Agree, the future looks more promising. I do think the lull in head coaching options right now is just due to a poor job in recognizing and developing talent.

[splatbass]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88

Obviously their interview today with Jim Harbaugh was just a “sham” interview.

I read that the interview with Harbaugh didn't go well.