Replacing both our AC units! Brand question.

[lewdog]

Lots of badass help on CP for these home maintenance things!

Replacing our 2.5 and 3.5 ton Carrier AC systems that are 18 years old.

Have had similar quotes for Carrier and Lennox brands. Recommendations on these brands? Other brands to look at or avoid?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Hog's Gone Fishin

I have Bryant in my home and it works great for about 10 years now. I bought the Cadillac model because the wife made me. I've put several tranes in my rentals. I think they are all pretty good. I'd get estimates from as many as possible and look at warranties . Make sure you have plenty of insulation in the attic, that makes a huge difference.

Thanks, Dude!

Unfortunately, I don't have an attic. All of the ductwork is exposed on a flat roof so it's exposed to the elements 24/7.

It sucks.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons

This may not be a popular opinion but I find the name on the installers truck to be much more important than the name on the equipment. In my experience, most brands have fairly similar offerings so as long as you stay with the big names (Carrier, Trane, Lennox, Bryant, etc) you’ll be fine. Setup and installation is not a simple plug and play and a good installer will insure you have a good delta T across your coil with the appropriate air flow. A good installer will make almost any system work well and a bad installer will make a good system perform poorly.

All that being said, I installed two new Trane units last year and they have been fantastic. However, if my preferred installer had been selling other reputable brands instead I would not have hesitated at all to buy them instead.

This is the correct answer.

[Eureka]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Thanks, Dude!

Unfortunately, I don't have an attic. All of the ductwork is exposed on a flat roof so it's exposed to the elements 24/7.

It sucks.

Yeah, that does suck. Is there nothing that can be done to insulate the ducts somehow?

[Peter Gibbons]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I'm getting bids to replace a 5 ton unit on my roof, which includes resealing all of the ducts, which are exposed on the roof, a new platform, all new vent registers (the current registers 4 way and but of the installers say that they should be replaced with one way) and any electrical.

With the ductwork replaced, I'm looking at $25k with crane fee and tax and $15k using the existing ductwork (which one company said was fine). So, my decision is between a huge SoCal company called NexGen or a Mom & Pop guy I've used since 2008.

One is selling Daikin/Amana and the other Day & Night.

Any brand preference? Thanks in advance.

Did either of the contractors do a “manual-J” calculation to determine latent heat loads and the needed cooling capacity? If not, how did they size the unit? The unit size will also determine the size and capacity needed for ducts. If they did take the effort to make the calculations, did they both come to the same conclusion? Since you have two different opinions about the adequacy of the existing ducts I would try to understand what the reasoning is behind each of their beliefs. The one who is basing their opinion off science and math is who I would hire.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons

Did either of the contractors do a “manual-J” calculation to determine latent heat loads and the needed cooling capacity? If not, how did they size the unit? The unit size will also determine the size and capacity needed for ducts. If they did take the effort to make the calculations, did they both come to the same conclusion? Since you have two different opinions about the adequacy of the existing ducts I would try to understand what the reasoning is behind each of their beliefs. The one who is basing their opinion off science and math is who I would hire.

Thanks, man!

My home was built in 1994 and whoever built it needs to be strung up by their balls for at least 30 years because we have so many issues in which the home wasn't built to code. The home was originally 3,200 square foot, so it should have been zoned with two units (we've added an additional 300 square foot since). Instead, they installed one 5 ton unit with zero zoning. All of the companies that have given bids have said that zoning the home now is impossible because they'd basically have to tear out all of the walls and ceilings, which obviously just isn't going to happen.

One company recommended we replace the existing ducts with "more efficient" ducts while another said that the existing ductwork is fine. The smell of mold and bacteria would be a sign that the ducts need to be replaced but that's a non-issue. I think that guy was just trying to work me.

We're adding another 400 square foot to the home to extend our laundry room and create a gym area off of our master bedroom. The company that felt we needed the ductwork replaced had no problem with adding a vent to each room, while the other company said we should get a dual head ductless mini-split to the addition because we're already pushing the limits on a 5 ton unit so at this point.

I'm getting more bids next week (well, if they show up - I've had two companies that I've made appointments with that didn't even bother to call to let me know they weren't even coming by to give us a bid). Hopefully, I'll have a better handle on things by then.

Any opinion on Day & Night versus Daikin?

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I'm getting bids to replace a 5 ton unit on my roof, which includes resealing all of the ducts, which are exposed on the roof, a new platform, all new vent registers (the current registers 4 way and but of the installers say that they should be replaced with one way) and any electrical.

With the ductwork replaced, I'm looking at $25k with crane fee and tax and $15k using the existing ductwork (which one company said was fine). So, my decision is between a huge SoCal company called NexGen or a Mom & Pop guy I've used since 2008.

One is selling Daikin/Amana and the other Day & Night.

Any brand preference? Thanks in advance.

Amana is a low end unit.
Bryant is a Carrier with a different label. Absolutely no difference. Very good equipment. American Standard is a Trane. Very good equipment. You cannot go wrong with either brand of equipment. If there is a problem it will be with the installer.

[Peter Gibbons]

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

Amana is a low end unit.
Bryant is a Carrier with a different label. Absolutely no difference. Very good equipment. American Standard is a Trane. Very good equipment. You cannot go wrong with either brand of equipment. If there is a problem it will be with the installer.

I fully agree with this. The brands of the equipment will not make much difference in all honesty. My experience is that a good installer will make any brand system work well and that a bad installer will make great equipment perform poorly. Unfortunately, these are not simple plug and play solutions but rather they require the installer to incorporate them correctly into a well designed system of ductwork. That being said, most good installers work with long-running reliable brands.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

Amana is a low end unit.
Bryant is a Carrier with a different label. Absolutely no difference. Very good equipment. American Standard is a Trane. Very good equipment. You cannot go wrong with either brand of equipment. If there is a problem it will be with the installer.

Thank you!

Why is the Daikin the same price as the Day & Night? Our current Trane is 13 years old and while it's working, it also has microfractures, so I've been paying $1k or more each year to have it recharged because the refrigerant is R22.

I should also mention that we have a "Package Unit".

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons

I fully agree with this. The brands of the equipment will not make much difference in all honesty. My experience is that a good installer will make any brand system work well and that a bad installer will make great equipment perform poorly. Unfortunately, these are not simple plug and play solutions but rather they require the installer to incorporate them correctly into a well designed system of ductwork. That being said, most good installers work with long-running reliable brands.

Interesting.

The guy today said the exact opposite about Carrier vs. Daikin, stating that Carrier's are made in Mexico with the replacement parts coming from China, which are definitely difficult to get at this point in time, which is why they prefer the Amana/Daikin.

[TambaBerry]

Day and night is a good brand

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Thank you!

Why is the Daikin the same price as the Day & Night? Our current Trane is 13 years old and while it's working, it also has microfractures, so I've been paying $1k or more each year to have it recharged because the refrigerant is R22.

I should also mention that we have a "Package Unit".

I am not familiar with Day & Night. Although by looking at the following link they are the lowest level of the Carrier line of equipment. Those are all owned by United Technologies.
Just a link for you if you care to look. It is quite neat with the history of what happened to that line of equipment.

https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air...-night-review/

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

I am not familiar with Day & Night. Although by looking at the following link they are the lowest level of the Carrier line of equipment. Those are all owned by United Technologies.
Just a link for you if you care to look. It is quite neat with the history of what happened to that line of equipment.

https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air...-night-review/

Thanks again!

I don't understand the pricing. The Trane cost $5,800 with crane fee to install in 2008 but now, it's three times that price for Day & Night or Daikin/Amana. Have units tripled in price overall or is this due to the pandemic and shortage of units?

The worst part is that we only use the unit maybe 3 months a year. We didn't turn on the heat even once this past winter and we generally don't need AC until July-October, barring the occasional heat wave.

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Interesting.

The guy today said the exact opposite about Carrier vs. Daikin, stating that Carrier's are made in Mexico with the replacement parts coming from China, which are definitely difficult to get at this point in time, which is why they prefer the Amana/Daikin.

The long and short of that is there is truth and bullshit in there. The truth is that most things come from outside our country one way or another. The bullshit part is that Trane/American Standard have their own compressors. EVERY other manufacturer uses a Copeland Scroll compressor. There are 4 companies that make coils for condensers and evaporates, period. Every unit, package, or split will have a contactor that does not have to be brand specific, i.e. GE, Mars, Square D, Allen Bradley. They will all have a fan motor that is only manufacturer specific in specialty units, therefore again there are many manufacturers of motors that will meet the necessary specs that are readily available, there are even universal motors that are capable of many varying voltages and speeds. Same thing with capacitors. These types of parts are all readily available from any HVAC parts store. The only thing that is not will be the control board. Almost all semiconductors and micro chips come from Taiwan.

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Thanks again!

I don't understand the pricing. The Trane cost $5,800 with crane fee to install in 2008 but now, it's three times that price for Day & Night or Daikin/Amana. Have units tripled in price overall or is this due to the pandemic and shortage of units?

The worst part is that we only use the unit maybe 3 months a year. We didn't turn on the heat even once this past winter and we generally don't need AC until July-October, barring the occasional heat wave.

Things might be slightly different in California than Arkansas or Missouri as they have stricter guidelines and standards, but I am assuming that your old unit in 2008 was probably a 10 or 13 seer unit. Now the minimum is 14, here anyway. The higher the seer rating the larger the coils get and the bigger the units become to hold the larger coils and fan motors. The boards also become more advanced in variable speed fans and compressors controlled through control boards. An example is a new 3-ton condenser that is the same size as a 5 ton unit of 5 years ago. A 5-ton unit now is very large to handle. Using a crane it doesn't really matter but the unit will be 200 lbs heavier at least.
I am sure that labor rates are higher along with insurances for both the HVAC contractor as well as that crane operator. Everything is ridiculous anymore.