Chris Simms: Tyreek Hill #1 WR in the NFL

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

When you're putting up 100 catch 1500 yard 8 TD seasons regularly, yeah, you're pretty much in some storied territory.

Basically, Tyreek's 2018? Julio does that about every year.

Jesus.

When pro-rated for a 16 game season, Julio's career average season is 101 catches for 1540 yards and 7 scores. Last season was his first season over the previous 6 where he didn't go for at least 1,400 yards (1394 over 15 games)

Wow. Yeah, he can play a little bit. He'll slow down a bit at some point (31 years old now) but it's hard to say he has before he does.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Jesus.

When pro-rated for a 16 game season, Julio's career average season is 101 catches for 1540 yards and 7 scores. Last season was his first season over the previous 6 where he didn't go for at least 1,400 yards (1394 over 15 games)

Wow. Yeah, he can play a little bit. He'll slow down a bit at some point (31 years old now) but it's hard to say he has before he does.

Clearly just a more athletic Dwayne Bowe!



Good god RunKC. What a shit ****ing take.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Clearly just a more athletic Dwayne Bowe!



Good god RunKC. What a shit ****ing take.

Yeah.

That one's pretty damn bad.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Jesus.

When pro-rated for a 16 game season, Julio's career average season is 101 catches for 1540 yards and 7 scores. Last season was his first season over the previous 6 where he didn't go for at least 1,400 yards (1394 over 15 games)

Wow. Yeah, he can play a little bit. He'll slow down a bit at some point (31 years old now) but it's hard to say he has before he does.

Hopkins average is 1,228 yards, 7 TD’s (closer to 8 at 7.7) with 11 less catches than Julio.

Keep in mind Hopkins doesn’t get the luxury of playing with an NFL MVP QB his entire career or have a top 5 offensive coach for a few years.

The fact that Hopkins has virtually the same production with literal shit at QB most of his career speaks to his value. And when he finally did have a good QB the last 2.5 years he dominated, but had a horrible HC.

Staylor will push the narrative that I think Julio sucks but that isn’t true. He’s a good receiver, but I don’t put him at the very top and that gets posters in their feelings.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Hopkins average is 1,228 yards, 7 TD’s (closer to 8 at 7.7) with 11 less catches than Julio.

Keep in mind Hopkins doesn’t get the luxury of playing with an NFL MVP QB his entire career or have a top 5 offensive coach for a few years.

The fact that Hopkins has virtually the same production with literal shit at QB most of his career speaks to his value. And when he finally did have a good QB the last 2.5 years he dominated, but had a horrible HC.

Staylor will push the narrative that I think Julio sucks but that isn’t true. He’s a good receiver, but I don’t put him at the very top and that gets posters in their feelings.

You literally called him “overrated” and “a more athletic Dwayne Bowe”. You also said he wasn’t clutch. You didn’t say he “sucks”, but you aren’t giving him near enough credit for being the best WR of the last 10 years not named Antonio Brown.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Hopkins average is 1,228 yards, 7 TD’s (closer to 8 at 7.7) with 11 less catches than Julio.

Keep in mind Hopkins doesn’t get the luxury of playing with an NFL MVP QB his entire career or have a top 5 offensive coach for a few years.

The fact that Hopkins has virtually the same production with literal shit at QB most of his career speaks to his value. And when he finally did have a good QB the last 2.5 years he dominated, but had a horrible HC.

Staylor will push the narrative that I think Julio sucks but that isn’t true. He’s a good receiver, but I don’t put him at the very top and that gets posters in their feelings.

Huh?

Pro-rate Hopkins performance and he has averages 92/1251/8

compared to 101/1540/7 for Julio.

I mean, they're 'virtually the same' except that Jones averages more catches, more yards, more yards/catch, more catches/target and more yards/target. So, apart from being better than Hopkins at EVERYTHING...clearly they're virtually the same.

And by the way, Hopkins best season was with Brian Hoyer throwing him the football. He's not gotten any better since Watson came along. As I said above, I largely discount the 'great WRs get more production w/ great QBs' argument because I've seen it in action. I've seen Cassell force everything to Bowe or Tyler Thigpen jam everything he can in to Tony G.

Hopkins hasn't seen an uptick in production since he had a Pro Bowl quarterback show up. His 2015 season was a product of hilarious volume. His 2018 season was essentially his 2014 season + more targets (but the rates were the same). he's been the same player.

Which is a player that's about 85% as productive as Julio Jones.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

And by the way, Hopkins best season was with Brian Hoyer throwing him the football. .

Hopkins was amazing with a backup level QB and the following collections of receivers to throw to: Cecil Shorts, Jaelen Strong, Keith Humphrey and Nate Washington.

Thank you for making the Only argument for me that is needed in this discussion.

The defense rests its case

[Chris Meck]

It's apples and oranges.

Big, long, tall guys don't play the same as smaller, compact guys.

You might prefer the look of one over the other; and might prefer the benefits of one over the other, but the value of one over the other lies in the offensive system.

To try to compare them outside of context is silly.

With Mahomes, in this system, Tyreek is the best possible WR to have. His skillset matches perfectly.

A Julio Jones type WR in a different system, with a different QB might be a better fit.

I think elite speed transfers about anywhere though.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

It's apples and oranges.

Big, long, tall guys don't play the same as smaller, compact guys.

You might prefer the look of one over the other; and might prefer the benefits of one over the other, but the value of one over the other lies in the offensive system.

To try to compare them outside of context is silly.

With Mahomes, in this system, Tyreek is the best possible WR to have. His skillset matches perfectly.

A Julio Jones type WR in a different system, with a different QB might be a better fit.

I think elite speed transfers about anywhere though.

Exactly.

With this system and this quarterback, there's not a guy in the league I'd rather have than Hill. He's an absolutely perfect fit. Apart from Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss, I'm just not sure you could draw up a better guy. Jerry Rice, I guess.

But if I'm a team that relies more on ball control, I'm taking Julio 100 times out of 100. Or even Hopkins, who again, I'm not in love with. But put Hopkins in Baltimore and he'd be far more effective for them than Hill would be.

And honestly, on MOST teams, Hopkins or Julio would probably be more effective than Hill. Because on most teams, Hill would be a supercharged Julien Edelman. Because few teams have a QB that can put his stop/start ability and top-end speed to its full use. And those that do have a guy with that kind of arm also have a guy who's accuracy comes and goes and who needs a bigger catch radius (think Josh Allen).

So in that regard I understand why some wouldn't have Hill ranked as highly. He's simply uniquely suited for this team.

[ModSocks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Exactly.

With this system and this quarterback, there's not a guy in the league I'd rather have than Hill. He's an absolutely perfect fit. Apart from Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss, I'm just not sure you could draw up a better guy. Jerry Rice, I guess.

But if I'm a team that relies more on ball control, I'm taking Julio 100 times out of 100. Or even Hopkins, who again, I'm not in love with. But put Hopkins in Baltimore and he'd be far more effective for them than Hill would be.

And honestly, on MOST teams, Hopkins or Julio would probably be more effective than Hill. Because on most teams, Hill would be a supercharged Julien Edelman. Because few teams have a QB that can put his stop/start ability and top-end speed to its full use. And those that do have a guy with that kind of arm also have a guy who's accuracy comes and goes and who needs a bigger catch radius (think Josh Allen).

So in that regard I understand why some wouldn't have Hill ranked as highly. He's simply uniquely suited for this team.

Tyreek Hill turned Alex Smith into the #1 rated passer in the league and made Alex all of a sudden discover his deep ball.

I disagree that few teams could utilize his start/stop ability. The pure speed of Tyreek Hill makes him in instant mismatch in any offense. ****, even Matt Moore figured out how to throw the ball over the top to Hill.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Tyreek Hill turned Alex Smith into the #1 rated passer in the league and made Alex all of a sudden discover his deep ball.

I disagree that few teams could utilize his start/stop ability. The pure speed of Tyreek Hill makes him in instant mismatch in any offense. ****, even Matt Moore figured out how to throw the ball over the top to Hill.

I think in true Chiefsplanet fashion, we're staking out positions on opposite ends of the argument when the truth is not so black and white.

I don't think anyone's saying Hill couldn't be effective in any system; and I said I think elite speed is perhaps the one element of a skillset that certainly translates.

and I think it should be obvious that pairing an elite WR with an elite QB in any system is killer. They'll find a way to make it work.

as for Matt Moore-he's always had a bit of gunslinger in him. I'm glad he's back, I think he's showed more than Henne in Miami, and here.

Not all QB's have a deep ball accuracy to take advantage of Hill's runaway speed like Mahomes. But, Hill would still be deadly in short and intermediate passing. Just not the same way.

a guy like Julio Jones would still be a great player here, but would lose some targets downfield, I think, due to Watkins and Hardman's ability to separate with speed. Jones would still be great, it's just not his best system fit.

It's not a knock on any of the individual players. I'm just saying some are better system/QB fits than others. But as I said, great players will be great anywhere.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Tyreek Hill turned Alex Smith into the #1 rated passer in the league and made Alex all of a sudden discover his deep ball.

I disagree that few teams could utilize his start/stop ability. The pure speed of Tyreek Hill makes him in instant mismatch in any offense. ****, even Matt Moore figured out how to throw the ball over the top to Hill.

Alex Smith also pocketed a ball in a playoff game that Mahomes would've thrown. A ball that is the kind of ball that makes Hill so dangerous.

I'm not saying he'd be ineffective. My comparison to Edelman isn't meant as derogatory - a healthy Edelman was good for 100 catches and 1100 yards. A 'supercharged Edelman' would be good for even more.

But it takes 2 or 3 deep shots/season that Mahomes completes over an ordinary player to knock 150-200 yards off Hill's total figures. That's not nothin'...

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Tyreek Hill turned Alex Smith into the #1 rated passer in the league and made Alex all of a sudden discover his deep ball.

Nah dawg. Alex wasn’t that way until 2017. Patrick Mahomes was drafted.

I think that forced Alex to be aggressive. Well...until he reverted back to his timid self in the playoffs despite having Tyreek and Hunt the whole game.

[O.city]

Julio is an all time WR. You could put him in any system and he's gonna be elite.