The Last Dance

[KurtCobain]

I'm pumped up for this. On ESPN.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by sedated

Wha?

He wanted a long term deal. They offered one, because he asked, but advised against it. He signed it. 5 years later he got pissed at management for holding him to a contract that he requested.

Should they have renegotiated because he was one of the best players in the NBA? Probably. But to say they "took advantage" of him for giving him exactly what he requested - long-term security - is completely backwards.

We'll have to agree to disagree. There's no freaking way in the world that Pippen would have had to settle for a measly $2 million per in today's NBA.

The ownership took advantage of him, plain and simple. And no one stood up for him, including Jordan.

[sedated]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

This forum has been bitching for decades about Tom Brady taking less money each year so that the Patriots can put a team around him.

I don't think you can compare the NFL to other sports because of the way the contracts are setup. The NBA had no cap at the time. The NFL "taking less money" is just taking more guaranteed money to lower the cap number and has no effect on what the player is actually being paid.

I can't think of an instance of a MLB or NBA player giving money back to a team so that they can pay another player. But if there is one, please do share.

MJ taking less would not have affected Pippen's contract. It wasn't because the Bulls were out of money or were up against the cap. They said "you signed it, you deal with it"

[KCUnited]

Krause: "a lot of kids all over Europe want to be like Toni Kukoc"

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by sedated

I don't think you can compare the NFL to other sports because of the way the contracts are setup. The NBA had no cap at the time. The NFL "taking less money" is just taking more guaranteed money to lower the cap number and has no effect on what the player is actually being paid.

False:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-ba...cash-earnings/

Tom Brady's Cash Earnings earlier this decade were $12 million, $13 million, $19 million, $13 million, $14 million, $15 million, $15 million and so on. He was a Super Bowl Winning QB during that time and was most certainly taking a discount.

Originally Posted by sedated

I can't think of an instance of a MLB or NBA player giving money back to a team so that they can pay another player. But if there is one, please do share.

Major League's Player Association is the strongest union in all of sports and has been that way since the 70's and the advent of free agency. Good to great players are traded all the time in order for teams to pay certain superstar players because they don't receive any monetary relief by cutting players due to the fact that all contracts are guaranteed.

If the NBA didn't have a cap, why was Jordan paid $36 million while Pippen, the 2nd best player in the NBA, had to settle for $2 million? It wasn't because the owner couldn't pay him, it's because the owner chose not to pay him and the NBA's Player Association at that time had very little power.

Originally Posted by sedated

MJ taking less would not have affected Pippen's contract. It wasn't because the Bulls were out of money or were up against the cap. They said "you signed it, you deal with it"

He didn't have to take less money but he could have threatened Reinsdorf, just like he threatened and bullied everyone else around him.

He choose not to, plain and simple.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You're the worst kind of fan because you don't care if a superstar treats those around him like complete and utter shit. He cheated on his wife and treated everyone around him as if they were beneath him.

His post Bulls career has been a joke, which isn't surprising given how he treated people in the past. Who would want to play for that guy?

So much of a joke that he makes more retired than he did playing and actually has the highest personal wealth of any athlete ever.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

False:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-ba...cash-earnings/

Tom Brady's Cash Earnings earlier this decade were $12 million, $13 million, $19 million, $13 million, $14 million, $15 million, $15 million and so on. He was a Super Bowl Winning QB during that time and was most certainly taking a discount.



Major League's Player Association is the strongest union in all of sports and has been that way since the 70's and the advent of free agency. Good to great players are traded all the time in order for teams to pay certain superstar players because they don't receive any monetary relief by cutting players due to the fact that all contracts are guaranteed.

If the NBA didn't have a cap, why was Jordan paid $36 million while Pippen, the 2nd best player in the NBA, had to settle for $2 million? It wasn't because the owner couldn't pay him, it's because the owner chose not to pay him and the NBA's Player Association at that time had very little power.



He didn't have to take less money but he could have threatened Reinsdorf, just like he threatened and bullied everyone else around him.

He choose not to, plain and simple.

Name a player in any pro sport that has negotiated another player's contract?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Mecca

So much of a joke that he makes more retired than he did playing and actually has the highest personal wealth of any athlete ever.

I should have specified that I was referring to him running the Wizards and Hornets.

There's no doubt that he's the most famous athlete that ever lived and that he's ridiculously wealthy.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Name a player in any pro sport that has negotiated another player's contract?

You're missing the point. Michael Jordan doesn't and didn't give a shit about anyone else but him. Not his teammates. Not his wife. Not anyone.

He was a narcissistic asshole, plain and simple. No one else mattered.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You're missing the point. Michael Jordan doesn't and didn't give a shit about anyone else but him. Not his teammates. Not his wife. Not anyone.

He was a narcissistic asshole, plain and simple. No one else mattered.

But you're saying, or have been saying, that somehow it was Jordan's fault that Pippen wasn't getting paid more than his paltry $2 million. that he should've "stood up for Pippen."

And I saying, why would he do that?

Has anything like that ever happened? Did Bird go to Celtics management and say, "hey I think 'X' should get more money?"

Did Magic intervene for Worthy or whoever?

Did Tom Brady intercede on Moss' behalf at contract time?

Pretty sure the answer is "no."

So why on Earth should Jordan have ever "gone to bat" for Pippen about his contract?

You seem to expect that Jordan should've done something that no other player ever did in the history of pro sports. As much as I always loved Pippen, I never once thought anything but "he ****ed himself." He signed a deal that wasn't in his best interests long-term, even after his own management told him not to take it.

That's on Pippen and Jerrys Krause/Reindorf. Jordan was never a part of that deal.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

But you're saying, or have been saying, that somehow it was Jordan's fault that Pippen wasn't getting paid more than his paltry $2 million. that he should've "stood up for Pippen."

I never once said it was his "fault", I said he didn't do anything about it, didn't care and was fine with it.

Big difference.

Jordan didn't give a flying **** about anyone but himself.

[KurtCobain]

Jordan could have easily spoken out about Pippin's contract to the media and something would have been done about it.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I never once said it was his "fault", I said he didn't do anything about it, didn't care and was fine with it.

Big difference.

Jordan didn't give a flying **** about anyone but himself.

I think you're reaching here. Jordan wasn't Pippen's keeper.

I get it now, though. You hate Jordan. Whatever.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

I think you're reaching here. Jordan wasn't Pippen's keeper.

I get it now, though. You hate Jordan. Whatever.

Hate him? I don't hate him. I don't know that man. I was never a fan because I never watched him in the 80's and 90's.

But any outside observer can easily see that if the greatest athlete in the world had spoken up about the absurdity of Pippen's contract, Pippen would have been taken care of, immediately.

The mere fact that you don't understand that simple notion is quite telling about you.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Hate him? I don't hate him. I don't know that man. I was never a fan because I never watched him in the 80's and 90's.

But any outside observer can easily see that if the greatest athlete in the world had spoken up about the absurdity of Pippen's contract, Pippen would have been taken care of, immediately.

The mere fact that you don't understand that simple notion is quite telling about you.

Uh no. Krause and Reinsdorf had a widely known reputation for "if you sign it, you own it. Don't try to renegotiate it later." That's a cast iron fact. So there was never going to be a "oops, let's fix this" moment for Pippen once he signed.

As for Jordan, he wasn't Pippen's daddy. Pippen was a grown-ass man, able to make his own grown-up decisions.

And where does it say that Jordan was even aware of Pippen's contract details before Pippen signed? Did Pippen even discuss his contract with anyone on the team before signing?

But that's all just speculation. The fact is, that Scottie Pippen chose years instead of dollars, because of his childhood. It was a mistake, but it was all his. Jordan, or any elite player doesn't have any obligation to be another player's daddy.
For that matter, if we're going to go down that road, how do we know that Jordan didn't tell Pippen to try and negotiate for a better deal?

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

But any outside observer can easily see that if the greatest athlete in the world had spoken up about the absurdity of Pippen's contract, Pippen would have been taken care of, immediately.

That's just not true. It was a different era, players didn't have the same kind of power they have now. That was the reason Jordan hated Krause to begin with, Krause made moves against Jordan's wishes. Most notably trading Jordan's best friend on the team, Charles Oakley, for Bill Cartwright.

Also it gets forgotten because he was paid so much in the last two years of his Bulls career, but Jordan himself signed a similar shitty long term deal (8 years/25 million) in 1988. In his first comeback season, the 72-10 year, he was still making less than $4 million. If Jordan couldn't even get the Bulls to renegotiate a contract for himself, how was he supposed to make them do it for Pippen?