I am not a fan of Veach's "tier" approach.
 

The idea that he has players in layered tiers is not new, of course.

But here's the problem with it: in any tier you care to look at, the most valuable positions get drafted first, because of course they should. Quarterback, tackle, wide receiver, passrusher.

The last players to be chosen in any tier are going to be the lowest value players.

Running back. Linebacker. Interior offensive line.

And here we are. That's been the Chiefs last four picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

It's just not a great approach when you're always at the end of the round, which the Chiefs always will be under Reid and Mahomes. You need to be able to be more flexible.

The Chiefs selected a linebacker (which we do desperately need) and a center (which we kinda needed) when there were really good players in a lower tier still on the board.

How much better is Humphrey going to be than Blythe? Really?

Because remember that when we struggle to get a passrush in December, January, and February. Remember that in the Super Bowl when the Bucs run out the exact same coverage that blanketed us the first time and we still don't have a WR2 that can break free of 1 on 1 coverage. Remember that when, god forbid, one of our corners go down with injury in week 7 and we have to watch Rashad Fenton get raked for 8 weeks.

That being said, the Chiefs did get better this weekend. They just could have gotten a lot better this weekend, with how sexy the board looked when they were up to pick.

Pick by pick reviews.

LB Nick Bolton, Missouri -- The Chiefs probably have the best linebacking corps now that they've had in a decade. Hitchens finally seems to understand the system, Gay looked really solid all year and came on until his injury, and Bolton's going to be really good. He's a smart player with limited athleticism, so really a perfect Spags linebacker. But he may be a two-down player, and I see a lot of Kawika Mitchell in him -- neither of those are deserving of the 2nd round pick we spent. C-

C Creed Humphrey, Oklahoma -- I think Humphrey has Pro Bowl upside, and honestly the Chiefs track record on 2nd round centers is stellar with Mitch Morse and Rodney Hudson. I think he's going to be a starter here for 10 years. I'd had preferred other players, but this was a good get. A-

DE Joshua Kaindoh, Florida State -- I really don't like this pick, and only talked myself into it the day of the draft because we are so desperate at the position. Kaindoh has every bit of the size you need, but he just has no feel for the game. This is a Demetrius-Harris-sized project. Harris turned out to be pretty good, but it took us four years to get there. Kaindoh may yield the same returns at a different position. D+

TE Noah Gray, Duke -- I really hope the loss of Anthony Sherman didn't mess with our heads badly enough to take this guy, as the team later was communicating he could be a flex fullback. It's hard for me to get too worked up about Gray, however, one way or the other. I think he's fine, but a poor fit, but the 5th round on was just garbage in terms of options. C+

WR Cornell Powell, Clemson -- The questions with Powell entirely will be between the ears. He is already physically maxed out and is pretty great with the ball in his hands. I imagine he will peak out in a couple seaons as a WR3 in our offense, but if the Chiefs continue to fail to find a really good WR2, he could ascend to a shrug-WR2, someone to play the position non-pathetically until we find the next Sammy Watkins. I think his ceiling is Chris Conley, which is nothing to write home about, but that's a really great get in a draft this garbage. B+

OG Tre Smith, Tennessee -- Home run. No question. This is why you don't burn $80m on a guard, or draft one in the 2nd round. Dorsey made his living finding really good guards late in the draft, and Veach has finally done it himself. Smith will not crack the lineup this year, but he's going to be our starting RG in 2022 -- bank on it. I have no idea how Veach landed this, when it was late in the 6th round and teams were just taking long snappers because there was no talent left on the board. A+

BuT PoSiTiOnAl VaLuE!

You’re a ****ing idiot. The Chiefs had a fantastic draft. The end.

Did you seriously compare Nick Bolton to Kawika ****ing Mitchell?

:facepalm:

Well you got me there.

Your problem? You listen to the AP Nerd Squad and give them too much credit on what they know.

I give them credit, I do. But I disagree with them on this draft.

They’re sold as hell on the third day of the draft. They were not happy with the Humphrey pick.

I differ from them on those scores.

Your entire argument is based on the same shit the Arrowhead Pride guys bitch about. Positional value outside of the top 15-20 picks is pretty much ****ing irrelevant. You don’t draft positions. You draft players.

I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong in some parts of that post, but as with the draft and a roster like KCs, like it or not, it’s not all about this year.

The draft is a multipurpose exercise. Add talent and fill some needs for sure, but also looking forward financially plays a part. The chiefs need a long term center and they got a great one.

I’m not a Bolton fan but that seems to be a “we didn’t think this guy would fall this far he’s bpa” pick.

The rest is fine or about what you’d expect.

I would have liked to see a wr or de sure, but the value needed to match up. It didn’t seem to and in the end, you have andy Reid to coach up wrs. I think DE is a spot you’re gonna have to take pretty early next year so patch it up and go from there

:hmmm:

So he was a “stud” that you’d take at 31 at one point, but the Chiefs got him at 58 and now you aren’t a “fan”?

LMAO

Positional value is not made up by the Arrowhead Pride guys.

It is harder to find a starting DE than it is to find a starting center, or linebacker.

Players with very good skill sets at those positions were sitting there when we opted for low hanging linebacker fruit.

I was meh on the Bolton and Kaindoh picks the day of the draft but even I can see why they were taken. Hitchens is gone after this year now and I’m happy that he will be. Kaindoh is much better against the run and I think he has some upside in zone coverage.

Kaindoh is all about measurables and if Daly can unlock the potential. We all freaked out when they took Danna and he wasn’t dog shit at least. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to an athletic freak at DE.

I would have liked to have seen Marshall or Basham at 58 but Marshall’s medicals obviously were a factor and Basham, I think, was an afterthought after the Reed signing. They want a DE...not a DE that they have to move inside on pass rush downs. We already have three pass rushing DTs now.

You can bet that DE is the first round pick next year for sure.

I totally understand the positional argument when you’re talking about the top 15-20 picks.

Outside of that, if it’s at the top of your priority list and the determining factor, you’re overthinking it.

Also, I assume you’re talking about Terrace Marshall for example. He clearly had medical concerns that the Chiefs and other teams weren’t comfortable with that early, should the Chiefs have taken him anyway because he’s a ****ing WR? That’s just dumb.

Yes, LB and C aren’t the most valuable positions, but Humphrey and Bolton were considered late 1st to early 2nd rounders going all the way back to last year. At 58 and 63, that’s VALUE.

So you want them to move this guys down because positional value and miss out on them for lower tiered players of higher positional value?

I actually think Danna will be a good rotational DE. Same with Taco. And, by Year 2, I feel the same about Kaindoh.

But we need a starter. We do not have a DE2, and we passed on several plum candidates to take Bolton and Humphrey.

At least Humphrey is going to make a Pro Bowl. Bolton’s going to be fine.

That was pretty early in the draft process. He’s a good player, I’m just not a fan of back to back lber in the 2nd with what was on the board but they had him rated high, and when that falls that way you take them.

Who? Basham?

And this is why I hate tiers.

The idea that a guy is in a lower tier clearly denotes him as a step down— but some of these guys aren’t huge steps down.

And if you gave me the choice of an A linebacker and a C passrusher, or an A passrusher and a C linebacker, I know which one is take.

Except they might not have seen Basham as an A pass rusher. We don’t know how they had him valued.

If you want a legit DE, you’re either gonna have to go the frank clark route and trade for one or take one likely in the first round.

And a ton of those guys went late first. No way were we trading up that high to get one of the bottom. That’s how you get Speaks 2.0.

So you were fine with LB in the 1st after going LB in the 2nd last year back then, but LB in the 2nd two years in a row is bad?

Everyone okay with the Cardinals taking two LBs with back to back top 20 picks?

Now that’s a positional argument that I totally understand. Those were top 20 ****ing picks. Not 32, 58, and 63. Completely different ball game.

I’m just saying. If I was a Cardinals fan...I would be pissed at the Zaven Collins pick right now.

Absolutely. I was agreeing with you.

But the issue is people like Direckshun are so concerned with positional value that they overlook real value.

Bolton and Humphrey were consensus top 40-50 guys at the very least that some had going in the 1st round.

To get that at 58 and 63 IS value.

Do the Chiefs not have a need at those positions? If they work out, are the Chiefs not getting value having a starting C and MLB on rookie deals as opposed to paying market value at those positions to fill a need in free agency? Value is value.

I worry with Bolton that he’s a stiff lber who ends up being a 2 down player but all my Mu buddies love the guy and say he’ll work hard to become more than that.

Eric kendricks type player is the upside so if that hits were in great shape

I thought he was a legit top 20ish dude and if he fell yeah it wouldn’t be ideal but the value is too tough to pass. I don’t think they’d have taken him at 31 but you can’t pass the way it worked out

A LB at 58 when one of your weakest positions on defense is LB....is not a bad pick.

But you’ve got teams like the Cardinals who just took another LB or the Jags who took a 3rd down RB in the first round and all the talking heads are in love with those picks.

I think they view him more of a pass rushing lber/de.

I don’t like it but with those two the upside is so high in what they can be I guess it makes sense

Bolton is worth the fact that when Hitchens gets tired or hurt....we won’t have to see Niemann come into the field at MLB.

Then take Jaelan Phillips and get an actual DE. That hybrid shit in the top 20 doesn’t make sense to me when it’s back to back years like that.

I think off ball linebackers have been devalued too much. I don’t like having to be in subpackage stuff so much because it makes you vulnerable. I like bulking the position up so I’m more ok with it than some.

Depends.

If you have a dc that can do it, versatility on defense is so huge. If it were Belicheck Or someone like that, I’d be more optimistic.

Collins is basically or hopefully a better reddick I think is their thoughts

I’m not a huge fan of taking guys that early to replace future contracts in that they don’t get as much experience but you just can’t bypass the value of the actual player

There just weren’t any DEs left at that point. Tends to happen when you have teams like the Colts and Bills taking two each with their first two picks.

And the Colts better be praying that Fisher is healthy by the start of Week 1 because they have no LT.

While the PFF and AP idiots are overly concerned with positional value and trading draft picks away, the Chiefs have completely rebuilt their OL into a strength.

They said paying a G like Thuney was bad.

Trading away picks to pay Orlando Brown was bad.

Drafting a C at 63 was bad.

They ignore the overall picture and results in favor of their “rules”.

It’s ****ing dumb.

This.

You just got a guy that was projected to go in the 30’s at 58 and he will be responsible for almost $10M in cap savings next year when they can let Hitchens go. It’s absolutely worth it.

FYI, Daniel Jeremiah liked our draft.

They stuck to their board. I didn’t really read or watch anything about Kwity but I would imagine they didn’t feel he’d be there or thought pass rusher was a bigger issue than LT. Whoever plays LT for them will play next to Nelson so he’ll get help.

Of course he did. He’s a football guy. Not an analytics guy.

A lot of talking heads have. Our average score is a B.

When you’re a team like kc and you don’t really have a gaping hole and have a super talented roster, you take good football players that fall for dumb reasons

The ones that did for the chiefs may not be at high level positions you’d like but really you don’t get to make that decision unless you wanna trade up

Daniel Jeremiah had Bolton 30th. He feels the Chiefs got a 1st round player (in this draft) at 58.

BuT PoSiTiOnAl VaLuE!!

Value IS value.

I’ll say this. I love that Bolton hits like Greg Wesley and DJ, if nothing else.

It’s going to be nice to have a scary hitter again, after what seems like years of finesse players.

Production per unit Salary Cap.

That is what we need to be concerned with.

The likelihood of Humphrey providing more production than a picked through selection for WR 2 is pretty high IMO.

I don't know a ton about Bolton, but if he can play, he's probably right up there. From the little I've seen there is some risk athletically, but I don't know much.

Obviously the league had him a little different though.

In the end, it will all come down to him. If he shows he can run and play 3 downs, it was a great pick and it was wrong for him to fall. If he ends up a 2 down Reggie Ragland type guy, yeah he fell for a reason

Orrrr he fell because of positional value and/or needs.

We don’t know.

I do know that he was a consensus top 40-50 guy that some even had in the 1st.

That’s value at 58.

And LMAO he’s so much better than Ragland. He’s a 3 down player even if he’s not a stud in coverage. He’s capable.

We know what Ragland was/is in the league. As prospects, they seem fairly similar.

Legit 3 down linebackers don’t tend to fall if that’s what the league thinks they are. I’m hoping he’s more devin bush jr than the league seems to think

LMAO

You went form this:

To that. So ****ing dumb.

“He didn’t show it as much in college but he’s capable” seems pretty spot on for Ragland coming out no?

Are we not allowed to change our minds as we go along with new information?

I have no clue when I said that, was probably after he had a million tackles in a mizzou game

I’m not disparaging him comparing him to Ragland as a prospect. I’m not saying that’s what he’ll become.

I’m saying they had similar issues coming out of college and things they needed to do at the next level.

Hopefully Bolton can do it.

That’s not what I said. At all. He did show that he’s capable in coverage. That doesn’t mean he can’t get/be better, but he’s not Reggie ****ing Ragland either.

There’s a lot more reason to believe Bolton can be a 3 down LB than Ragland. Anybody that thinks otherwise is clueless or hasn’t really watched Bolton’s tape.

Even PFF had a very good grade on Bolton in terms of coverage. He’s not great at it, but he’s absolutely capable. He also has ball skills and plays a lot faster/quicker than Ragland.

What exactly changed from then to now where you went from saying he was a stud that you would take in the 1st to him being a “meh” pick all the way down at 58?

I’m all ears...

I think you’re confusing what I’m saying here. As a prospect, that was what was said about Ragland. He ended up going in the first round.

Bolton has similar question marks and it likely pushed him down the board a little.

I’m not saying he can’t do it. Hopefully he can.

Didn’t test very well.

Based on what I’ve read atleast. I didn’t so much watching on this class either way, don’t really have time. So you’re probably right. You spend way more time on this than I do.

Have you not ever had a guy you liked a lot early that you eventually liked less? Maybe that’s just me

Hopefully it’s a case of “plays faster than he tests” maybe? He always seemed pretty good at mizzou

We have more depth across the board right now at nearly every position than we have had in years, maybe excluding corner and receiver, and this team has been to three AFCCG's and two Super Bowls in a row. Not only do I trust in Veach and his guys to do their due diligence researching who to bring into the fold, I trust our positional coaches and coordinators to maximize these guys' abilities and when and where to use them.

Did we reach with a couple of picks when we should have taken someone else? Sure, quite probably. Am I concerned about it? Not in the least. I'm stoked about these picks, every one of them. Even Kaindoh who can start on special teams and learn from Okafor, Taco, Clark, and Danna.

That’s absolutely how I feel. I’m not as concerned with the testing (which wasn’t that bad if I’m being honest) because he plays much faster on tape. He’s instinctive and can run sideline to sideline when you watch him. Never mind Ragland, I think he has more upside as a 3 down LB than Hitchens too.

I’m just giving you a hard time though.

Oh man. Where to start with this post?

Let's start here:

1)99% of the mock drafts and 'expert analysis' bullshit we see is based on rumors and guesses by people who are not and never have been NFL scouts. Most of them are no more qualified than you or I to run an NFL draft room; and you or I are absolutely NOT qualified just because we read what these guys say and watch some YouTube videos.

2) The concept of positional value above all else ignores CONTEXT. Judging an individual draft by that that concept ignores so many variables that are really important like:

A)team needs, which include cap situations regarding veterans going forward, the depth chart and whether this position is likely to see the field any time soon

B)Scheme fit- sure that player may be EDGE RUSHER #6, which is excellent value in the late 2nd round, but he's 245 lbs. and best suited as a 3-4 OLB, and is likely to ONLY be successful as a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 base/heavy nickel like we run here. So no, he's not as valuable as a guy who may play 60 snaps plus a game at a less 'premier' position of NEED.

3)Your premise assumes that there is a huge difference between, say, WR #8 and WR #16. The reality is, because of scheme fit, differences of opinion in scouts rankings, and such WE have no earthly idea who WR #8 even is to any specific team, and the difference between WR #8 and #16 may be a big difference or very little. A lot of times, guys are bunched in very similar talent groups and you don't know what variables make the fit a good one or not. Maybe WR #8 is faster, but he's dumb as a rock and unlikely to be able to digest an Andy Reid playbook. WR #16 is super smart and a better route runner which allows him to play 'quicker' than his 40 time but he played in a dumbed down offense in college so you and I don't know that, but the scouts do and he's a better fit actually than WR #8.

So do you reach for WR #16? You could, and then everybody talks about how stupid you are, because that guy has a fourth round grade, and this guy you passed over was a clear second round talent, yadda yadda yadda. So you wait and you take him where it makes sense to, and in the meantime-

4) KC is picking at the back end of every round. IF they stay with the so-called 'higher value, premier positions' they will forever be drafting lesser talent. This is a formula for a declining team. The system is literally set up that way-to encourage parity and discourage dynasties. If you keep your board open to any position that is a scheme and need fit you can get elite players albeit at 'less valued positions'. Having young, cost controlled elite talent is the key to keeping this SB train running as long as we can with Mahomes. You fill in what you need to in free agency, but the draft is still the foundation.

So, you take WR #8 in the second round, and end up with IOL #30 in round 6 and hope he can be a good starting Center in a couple of seasons because positional value! .This is how you end up with Reiter and Wylie.

But WR#16 was actually an equally good fit for the team and you could wait and grab him in the 4th because he's a really SPECIFIC good fit for this offense more so than some others and your scouts just love him. So you take the LB and the OC in the second because they fit perfect and you can greatly improve two separate position groupings from good to elite.

That's of more value than WR#8.

We need elite young cost controlled talent for now, and for the near future. You don't get that by drafting lower rated players at higher rated positions according to unqualified draftniks.

We got EXCELLENT value in round 2 with late first/early 2nd rated guys at positions of need; and the Offensive line has gone from our biggest weakness to an elite group for this season and seasons to come. The LB corps from our biggest defensive weakness to one with great promise for this season and the near future. We made our team weaknesses into strengths.

They are. GM Keim is an awful drafter. They have wanted his head on a pike for years now. Year round Keim hate is literally the foundation of local sports radio.

Compounding the LB/LB on back-to-back years in the top 16, they did the same thing previously with QB/QB. And 2017 was Hassan Reddick, another LB (really a DE they played out off position...).

Obviously the switch to Murray from Rosen was the right move, but they've had questionable positional decision making 5 years straight related to their 1st round picks. That statement is made agnostic of the actual players success.

Another year and yet another shitty draft evaluation by Direckshun.

For as many mocks as you’ve done over the past 15 years, it’s clearly evident that you haven’t learned a goddamned thing.

I agree with the premise of not paying guards that much, but it still depends on context. A team like Jacksonville perhaps shouldn't give that contract to Joe Thuney. He's just not going to make a significant enough difference to matter. A team like them definitely IS better off using the draft and other forms of young player development to gradually improve it over multiple seasons, because it's going to take that long for them to start competing.

The Chiefs had the resources. They had the money. They needed the help. And the help is going to significantly make a difference.

So pay the ****ing money.

It's not hard.

The Jaguars paying Andrew Norvell was dumb. They didn’t have a franchise QB or great tackles or even a great running back.

The Chiefs paying Joe Thuney was smart. He’s a multiple Super Bowl champion who blocked for the best QB in NFL history and checks all of the boxes in terms of leadership, pass blocking, run blocking and experience.

As early as next season (and maybe even this season), Thuney will be the most senior of all of the offensive lineman and the Chiefs are smartly paying for a guy who’s been around the Super Bowl block and help to mold these guys into consistent champions.

He’s worth every single penny.

"I'm not a fan of Veach's tier aproach"

-hosted 3 straight AFCCG
-won SB54
-went to back to back SB's
-wiped out all team weaknesses in 2 months
-team is well set with the cap situation for the forseeable future.


Yeah, Direckshun

Thanks for weighing in! :thumb:

Well. This post perfectly encapsulates everything that needs to be said.

Shut it down. Turn out the lights. Nothing more to see or say.

Basham is a nice player but he's not a great fit here.

Can play DE early then kick inside later.

I think Buffalo took him to play some 3 Tech because Oliver might be a bust that they took top ten.

Creed all the way over Boogie.

Ronnie Perkins.

And, yeah, Basham.

I don't really care -- I know how I had him graded and that's what's informing my opinion.

If every conversation is just going to devolve into "we should all defer to Veach in all things," then we have nowhere else to go. Because I still remember him as the GM responsible for the 2018 abomination. I may be the only one left, but I do.

Ronnie Perkins was at the top of my big board when 58 rolled around.

We passed on him twice, if my memory is correct.

heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll no

Hitchens never gets hurt. He's missed like 1 game, I think, in three years. Dude plays through everything.

I'm not interested in defending the AP guys, I'll just defend myself.

I don't think there's any doubt that the Chiefs had tunnel vision this offseason -- they used all three phases of the offseason to improve the OL almost exclusively.

As a result, we are now shallow everywhere else. We were willing to obliterate our capspace for Trent Williams.

We have no starting DE. We have no WR. We are skinny at literally every other position.

There was a middle ground here. We know there was.

I believe cutting Hitchens in 2022 will only save us $6m.

We had holes everywhere.

Still do -- we have at least two holes open at starting positions.

Guys, if Frank Clark goes down, which he has every year we've had him, we're going to be starting Taco Charlton and Mike Danna. And rotating in Tim Ward and Kaindoh.

You guys aren't grasping how big of a hole that is.

You guys are absolutely sleeping on the DE position.

1. That's fair.

2. This is fine, and I do understand that some players are of higher value to certain teams that run certain schemes. But let me break this down for you: Nick Bolton is probably not going to be playing passing downs. And if he does, that's not what he was good at for the Tigers. So... you've drafted a two-down linebacker in the Hitchens mold 58th overall, with good passrushers and receivers on the board. That's just not a wise use of resources.

3. I absolutely don't think we should have reached for anyone, ever. Nor am I saying we should pass up on an "A" linebacker for a "C" wide receiver simply because we have a dire need there and WR is more valuable. I'm saying that I had four players on my board -- Dyami Brown, Terrace Marshall, Ronnie Perkins, and Carlos Basham -- who were all valuable at the low 2nd picks, who all played valuable positions that we had desperate needs at, and we punted for a linebacker (which we did need!) who can't play the pass particularly well.

4. All good points, I don't disagree.

But I would have taken Ronnie Perkins and entered the 2021 season with two starting-caliber defensive ends and a competent Blythe at center than further-packing our OL and leaving one DE position wide open, which we've done.

Can we please dispense with the idea that Veach is above criticism?

We likely have two Super Bowls at this point if Veach had added a single defensive playmaker in 2018. His draft was horrendous. And he's made several goofs here and there that many of us called at the time.

Also: he hasn't "wiped out all team weaknesses." WE HAVE ONE STARTING DEFENSIVE END ON THE ROSTER.

Oh, I hadn't realized that the time for signing free agents is over.

It's really too bad that they won't be able to add any defensive ends via free agency, player-for-player trades or the waiver wire before the season begins in September.

The odds of landing a starting DE in a player-for-player trade is just... it's not great. Same with the waiver wire.

Your best shot is with the remaining DE market. There are some DEs still on the board, which is fine and all, but keep in mind the depth issue at DE will persist well after this season.

Frank Clark is cuttable in 2022. You save $13m if you do.

Putting a finger in the dam with Ingram or Ansah or Kerrigan is unlikely to fix that.