It really is about the best way, perhaps the fastest way, perhaps the only way, to end the insanity.

And it would be fun to watch too..

The radical left would bite their tounges, at lest for a while.

Boy that was a brutal way to go. Can't let another team survive like that.

This squad never really put it together. The game seemed too big for them in big moments.

Will be interesting to see who the next coach is. Vlatko is not the one.

This felt like the US throwing away a world cup to do a farewell tour for their geezers. Even if that meant playing out of position.One thing to roster rapinoe, but to play her, then to allow her to flub corner after corner then kick a crucial penalty. Despite an obvious lack of firepower they went favored slow and ineffective experienced geezers over young and dynamic inexperienced young players.

May be for the better. Coach seems nice but is wildly out of his depth. Veterans got too smug. they should have passed the torch instead of trying to run it back.

I think this team still had the requisite moxie to be a winner. They had all the pieces and I think they were poorly coached. Really rudderless on offense. I don't feel like the squad selection is as bad as others do but I get where you are coming from. Striker position was a damn mess.

I was pretty disappointed in Sophia Smith bottling her big moment.

On the bright side our keeper was amazing.

Non US related that performance by the Sweden goal keeper was one of the best I have seen in a while.

Fourteen of the roster had never played in a world cup before and they were missing several key players through injury so it's no surprise that they weren't as dominant as previous years. They weren't great against Portugal but did have great chances to win. They were outplayed in the first half against Holland but battered them in the second half and should have won that game too.

The game today was tragic. Dominated from start to finish, dominated the shootout early and then collapsed. It's a beautiful game but days like today can be cruel.

A new coach and the youngsters developing properly should see them bounce back fine in the next few years Imo. I don't think they have anything to worry about and winning the world cup every time was always unrealistic expecially when you're going through a transition period.

It's gonna be interesting to see who wins it now.

Having Rose Lavelle could have been the difference. In a game where the US put so many shots on frame, you know Rose would have had and created opportunities and she's pretty dead on.

That Swedish keeper though, what great performance.

Agreed, and part of that coaching decision was the refusal to play youth. Even if that meant relying on rapinoe who for all her past succesa was bad on almost every single touch. Having a young gun like alyssa thompson play 1 minute is criminal. They had a few young guns who played zero minutes. I get subbing vets late for PKS (to some extent). But man, not only could youth have provided a spark, also you get the future ready. It was almost like shelving Reyna for the men but way worse. Morgan was ok enough but did we really need a 37 year old playing that many minutes? And then after burning her you wait until the 25th hour to sub her for rapinoe to take the PKs?

The squad selection had a lot of their hand forced. It's just puzzling why he gave so much favoritism to old and slow veterans and didn't use the youth on the bench that he had. Imagine if vlatko coached 22 year old Alex morgan in her first world cup. She would've never seen the pitch

They got their pay and they were still bitching. They truly represent American women.

They got their pay and yet in spite of their dominance the US is at significant risk of losing players to Europe and have an underinvested pro league. Men don't care yet we feel the need to white knight them... They make a shitload in their pro careers and they recognize that growing the women's game is good for US soccer overall. But by all means, maybe we shoild be more American and lose to Europe on soccer development. It's too entrenched to change that for men's soccer, but there's no excuse for the US not to be dominating women's soccer.

And with all the bravado they went into the tournament with, it's even worse. Let's hope they learned a lesson and come back with a much better team next time.

This....

Yes it was...

Agree, soccer is the one professional sport where the ladies could make a huge showing on the globals stage if they play their cards right. And **** the WNBA, it's a joke. But they'll need to resist the politics ranging from the "equal pay" drama, to the "anti-America" appearance, to the pre-freak agenda they're drifting to. So Rapinoe going away should help as long as they don't allow another Rapinoe to take the leadership role and waste time on overly divisive non-soccer issues/agendas.

Just go play soccer.

Why do you think they have under invested in soccer in the US? I mean the reason, not the dollar numbers.

Also will growing the women's game be good for US soccer overall? There is a pro women's soccer league in the US, why is it struggling? What is the fix? How do they increase popularity of the game?

The US women have been dominant for quite a while and I question how much success that has led to for US soccer overall. Is the MLS more successful because of the success of the US women?

Honestly I would love to see the game grow in popularity overall, but curious what the solutions are.

Shoulda just put Messi in a wig and trotted his old ass out there...

That is a reasonable take. I wish more critics shared it. But sadly I think a lot of the critics go well beyond the "shut up and dribble." Most of the uswnt was lowkey but still got sniped. Nfl fans moved on after Kaepernick went away and I think uswnt will drift there too, but I don't know that many critics will move on. Some seem hellbent to cut women and girls down, regardless of their social stance, and that aspect of some of the criticism is gross to me. It's cool to see the sport grow and to see girls excited with dreams to aspire to. Like youre doing you can push back on that messaging without cutting girls down

It first starts with FIFA. they notoriously underinvested including tournament pay. They're hopefully starting to finally realize the benefit. They can grow the women's game without cutting down the men's game. They're raking in a shitload from sponsors like Nike who can now explode sales on sports bras. Or women's hygiene product sponsors, for example. The women's international sport is growing which is good for soccer overall. The US losing actually adds to intrigue since the sport is so dependent on international competition. So clearly there is untapped growth potential.

Understandably the focus in the US has been on building a better US men's team. It should be that way. So US soccer went all in on building MLS. They arguably even were willing to skunk the US national team by blackballing men's players who dared to play in Europe. Thank God thats changed. During those years the women did carry a lot of weight. The men lost a lot of money when they sucked and women's revenue helped US soccer rebuild anyway.

MLS and men's soccer are at a maturity point where they can invest in women's soccer. In fact they have more incentive because of equal pay. It's now a collective goal where growing women's soccer also helps men's soccer. And that's doable because they arguably have very distinct audiences. It's not like you're cannibalizing MLS profits. It's a chance to grow new fans and sponsors.

Seeing this disgrace to America cry really warms my heart. Karma is an even bigger bitch than she is/was. Good riddance.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-theme="dark"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Megan Rapinoe is a clown. <a href="https://t.co/d3dLTXeq5E">pic.twitter.com/d3dLTXeq5E</a></p>&mdash; Ian Miles Cheong (@stillgray) <a href="https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1688284238830026752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 6, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Anyone with blue hair is a clown.

Equal pay is a joke. I checked out the last few minutes of the match out of curiosity, and within seconds it was obvious that even the highest level of women's soccer is on par with boys high school soccer.

Someone should do some soccer exhibitions with 6 or 7 soccer players on the field instead of 11. It would be waaaay more exciting. Tough to score goals when so many players on the field mucking it up and less players would make more 1 v 1 situations which is exciting. Would also help the more athletic soccer players thrive.

That reminds me I once practiced in high school with a girl who went on to be a longtime Canada women's national team player and I was a fair amount better than her. Now I was a decent soccer player in high school, but I never got a scholarship or anything for college (nor did I seek one because I wasn't good enough).

It's certainly not a high level at all, at least if you're comparing to the men.

Why does this matter? Of course women's soccer player aren't nearly as good as men. What matters is what money they pull in. Unlike the wnba women's soccer pulls in a shitload and the growth potential is massive. Little girls idolize Alex morgan the way we idolize players like kelce and mahomes. They pull in entirely different fans and sponsors than men's teams. Do you realize how much money athletic apparel companies have made in women's apparel like sports bras since the women's first world cup?

Does women's soccer generally bring in more revenue than men's, or does that only happen during World Cups?

I don't know, but a loss brings in lots of posts for the official soccer thread of CP.

I don't want to sound mean-spirited but I think there's some truth in Bill Burr's take on women's sports. For a number of them to really kick off it's going to take women actually paying to watch the teams they want us to.

Men don't need this money as much because they're raking in a bajillion in pro soccer salary. From a national team level men's obviously rakes in more during world cup but the gap closes since women are more likely to make a deep run while men generally do not. This year is an exception, but keep in mind several years ago men didn't even qualify for the world cup at all. This is why you don't hear men complaining. That gap will continue to close as the international game is rapidly growing in popularity.

It doesn't have to be a Tug of war of who deserves more money. Men understand that. Growing women's soccer is great for men. It has a ton of growth potential so everyone makes more money. And if the women's game popularity grows, that carries over to the men when they compete too. The reason why equal pay is pretty important right now is because the women's game needs the most help right now.

The fact that the women's game "needs help" means they don't deserve equal pay right now. They don't bring in as much revenue as men because they can't produce a product of equal caliber.

For the wnba yes. The uswnt is different. They're killing it in ratings and sponsorships and that includes their exhibition tours in off years. The demand is more than there. Not to mention the gazillions these parents have spent on everything from uswnt jerseys to sports bras and cleats.

What's lacking is investment. From fifa who's done an absolutely shitty job promiting on a world stage, to investors committed to building good teams. It took decades to build MLS not after decades of struggle and that soaked up the priority. But the same devotion and resources were not put into the women's game. For good reason but now that tides changing. What you need is more people like brittany and Patrick mahomes who can commit to growing a market and the league the way the Hunts did. It won't measure up to even MLS but it also doesn't have to to be very successful

The men's league needed help for decades. Especially after the fiasco where they didn't even qualify a few years ago. For decades you had major markets pulling in usfl attendance. They got through because US soccer was hellbent on getting through the tough times. In prioritizing men's soccer they didn't put the same attention to women's pro soccer.

That's even assuming a us women's pro league is even vital to success. They're raking in good money even without a viable pro league.. The bigger obstacle has been growing the game internationally which is not a US problem. That's obviously changing.

It's not like they're growing this out of thin air. The demand is there. Sponsors are chomping at the bit to be a part of it. There just hasn't been the commitment to building infrastructure. Equal pay helps quite a bit and that's great for both men and women

Make no mistake, not only was the most visible USWNT player "pro" certain political topics, she made it known what political topics she was "anti" toward too, I think that became a sideshow that was an additional distraction that hurt the team.

For the sake of the USWNT I'm very happy she's gone.

I suspect those players in the locker room are happy she's gone, they just can't say it because they would risk retribution, being cancelled, and even black-balled.

it has been, and always will be.......all about money.

Once the WNT starts bringing in the same kind of TV contracts and advertising contracts as the men - they'll get paid the same.

That simple.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I get why people don't like her.

The US men make money because we invested heavily in them even when the fans, attendance and advertisers weren't there and the US men's product was so bad they were getting totally schooled on an international stage.

It's actually not that simple because it takes time and investment. The US men are at a maturity stage but only because of decades of effort. Women's soccer internationally is still largely in infancy. Either invest in its potential or watch the world pass us by which it did for men's soccer for decades. You have to skate to where the puck is going as much as you skate to where it is.

While I appreciate your stance, at least in America sponsors pay for ads where they will get the most eyeballs. Women do not watch women's soccer and men by and large do not care outside of big events like the World Cup. Even then the revenue generated by the men's World Cup dwarfs the women's one. FIFA can't invest more money in tournament pay than they bring in. Perhaps they can bump it higher, but no way the women come close to what the men make without robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If paragraph two is accurate then that says something and it's fair to think the men's team should reimburse the women's one for that.

Good luck on growing women's soccer outside of the national team. We can call it what we want or excuse it how we want, but the fact is no one cares about professional women's sports leagues in America. Men by and large do not want to watch women compete unless they are scantily dressed. Women do not follow women's sports. If they were to care even a little then the whole narrative would change, but as it stands, more women watch men's sports than their own.

But it doesn't though. How long has the WNBA been around? Has their "success" fed into the popularity of the NBA at all? 20+ years and they still need the NBA to subsidize them. That should say a lot right there. Growing women's sports is not as easy as you make it.

Also when you say equal pay, what do you support? Equal salary? Or equal % of revenue? In other words if the men get 15% of the revenue they generate, do the women also get 15% of the revenue they generate?

You're ignoring the bottom line: 20 years from now, the women's world cup will still pull a massively smaller amount than the men's world cup.

It has nothing to do with investment, it has to do with viewership, and how popular a sport is.

When the US mens team was awful (80s and 90s?), the world cup was still the largest sporting event in the world.

Women's pay for soccer - just like any other sport - has to do with TV contracts, stadium deals, advertising, etc. etc.

When women's soccer is as popular as men's......they'll see ronaldo and Messi sized contracts.

So yeah, when pigs fly.....

This.

You want men to start spending money on your sport? Then maybe get out of politics that suggest men = the bad guy.

No? Ok. That's fine. Then let women support your sport.

Oh, what's that? Women in general couldn't give a damn about sitting there for 3 hrs watching sports, let alone PAY for it?

Well that's quite the conundrum you've found yourself in then, isn't it?

BTW, i've been watching the WNBA all month.

/ducks for cover

**** you guys, it's the dog days of sports and I'm a sports junky.

bingo.

I'm teaching my wife to play golf because **** having my own hobby, right?

Anyway, we're watching a lot more LPGA now which isn't such a bad thing.

*Wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the Asians thread

The wnba is a shit product. I don't think you can make the same comparison. They haven't made money on their own. Uswnt has and a lot of it. Very big difference. There is nobody in the wnba even a fraction as popular as Alex morgan. Maybe Caitlin Clark is up and coming, but I find it really hard to believe that doesn't fizzle a lot once she goes pro. Maybe it's just me but I also don't see a ton of crossover. I think girls and women would rather watch better mens pros play basketball. Lots of women really love womens soccer . With the growth of women's soccer you've also seen an explosion of young girls playing soccer. That absolutely grows the US fan base that, let's be honest, views men's soccer as a side sport whereas for women it is THE sport. The wnba has tried to argue that but women's soccer's impact is exponentially bigger.

The wnba has failed despite nba owners obligated to run it at a loss. Women's soccer is the exact opposite. Arguably their earnings were funneled into growing men's MLS and development programs with little going into their own pro league. I get why but the resentment is understandable. Point being, the wnba has tried to make money but can't. Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention or investment.

For the record I dont think there needs to be equal pay. I also don't think any of it matters. This is a side bonus for men making a bazillion dollars in the pros. It is for now the main source of income for women. That's why the men didn't throw a fit.

Women and especially girls absolutely watch women's soccer. Nike sells a shitload of women's jerseys. It is a money maker. Not only are world cup ratings outstanding for the US, they're pulling in good attendance for meaningless exhibition games. They won't capture as many men but they don't care nor do they need to.

And it's not just about pure ad revenue. Did you know the sports bra market is $43b and has a 12% cagr (growth rate). It's expected to double in a few years. It's doing to women's apparel what tiger woods did to golf. It created a whole new category. Girls who weren't playing any sports are now buying cleats and jerseys and sports bras and all kinds of soccer shit. More importantly, it's great for advertisers. It's less eyeballs but they're extremely targeted. Women's brands can specifically target women and don't have to compete with other sports for eyeballs. Ive never watched a womens pro game but can assure you soccer mom's of soccer girls have.

A lot of what you're saying is where MLS was decades ago. Everyone said MLS would never catch on in the US. It's amateur soccer versus European leagues. It took years of shedding shit markets, building new stadiums, expansion,changing ownership, investment... Buying up big salaries even when the attendance wasn't there. Luxuries Nwsl was never afforded. but we're seeing it start to materialize. West coast teams are pulling 15-20k. Kc is building a new stadium because they're filling their current one. Can't really judge the product when they haven't put the love into it. But the growth potential is absolutely there

But I don't get where that's coming from. Women do watch and pay for uswnt. Where is this coming from that they don't?

Well, not many. and not enough.

Its boring. And women with real money to spend on things are not watching dykes play badly

Comparing the USWNT and the WNBA is not a good comparison and I can agree with you on that. But I also think that a lot of the USWNT's popularity is based on national pride and them being (up until this WWC) the best in the world. People rally behind and support it, to which we both agree. Once they stop and go to their pro leagues in the US, people forget about them. The same people watching the USWNT rarely watch the professional leagues as attendance numbers reflect.

Again, this could all change by people actually putting their money into it and actually support it. It's not some devious plot to hold down women's athletics. The money is not invested because there is viewed as no positive ROI for it. It's much easier to rally around a team representing a nation than local professional teams. Heck people who don't give two whits about soccer still watch when the USMNT plays in the WC.

If money was funneled into the MLS, there was a precedent for it before and incentive to grow it. The fact that the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, and men's collegiate sports revolving around those pro sports have been a success while zero women's sports can say that (although the women's NCAA tourney this year seemed to do well). There is zero precedence to think funneling money into women's pro leagues will grow it and make it a money winner........zero.

Your argument that "Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention" makes no sense. If no one is paying attention then it must not be as popular as you claim. To think the men's team just agreed to this equal pay arrangement without throwing fits shows a complete lack of awareness. Opposing it would have been suicide. And perhaps the men make more internationally, especially the elite players, but your average MLS player does not make a bajillion dollars.

At the end of the day I would love to see the women's game grow, but I have my doubts it can/will until proven wrong as history says it will not.

LOL, people just making comments who don't watch the games and didn't look at the data.

They were pulling in 5-8M viewers for prime time qualifier games. They pulled in 14m in the last womens world cup final.

The sports bra market is a $50b market with 12% annual growth rate. And the last women's world cup spiked Nike women's apparel sales by the billions

Nuh uh and because I said so isn't a real response.

Money was funneled into the MLS for good reason. Of course the usmnt is #1 priority and it took an all in effort for decades to get it off the ground. I'm not saying it's an injustice. It was the right thing to do. But the women's pro league wasn't prioritized not because it wasn't interesting but because there was a red hot fire to triple down on a ginormous decades long effort to built the foundation for American men's soccer. That includes using women's earnings and pumping that into MLS. That meant pumping all public funds on MLS stadiums and pumping all marketing into MLS.

Now that infrastructure is built and MLS is self sustaining. Women's success helped get MLS off the ground, so why not return the favor? Most of the core usmnt roster plays in Europe on multimillion dollar contracts where women rely solely on US soccer pay. When I say women's soccer hasn't gotten attention. I don't mean people don't care.. The US has done a great job promoting the national team but They put zero into women's pro league infrastructure. That's changing. And the game has changed. US can't just underinvest because they're the only country that cares. Now they're having to compete with European leagues who are poaching them with better salary. US soccer needs to invest to maintain dominance. But now they compete for a way bigger purse because the international scale is growing rapidly

I think you're speaking to more a self fulfilling prophecy that people don't want to invest in women's soccer because it isn't popular, and it isn't popular because nobody is investing in it. Thats exactly what Europe said. It wasn't until 2019 til they took it seriously. You know how many attended their women's euro league final live? 91k. I'm guessing they're kicking themselves for waiting so long to care about it. I don't think it's fair to judge women's pro leagues until you earnestly try. But there are plenty of signs that it will thrive. International popularity is booming, sponsors are raking in tons of cash and uswnt has been popular even without infrastructure. And as the women's game grows, mens soccer benefits too. Why wouldn't they work together to grow the game so that both pots can be benefit?

Matildas going all the way idgaf

Is that true of viewing figures? I would be amazed if so. Like I say, I reckon Burr's right. There's a lot of harrumphing from (some) women about how.men should watch women's sport. Sure, but you first. I get the point on marketing but i don't think there's a lack of knowledge amongst women about women's sport, as much as a lack of interest. But I'd be happy to see more of what you're talking about, and I could see that's part of the problem.

In the UK the only club with anything approaching a decent attendance for women's soccer is Arsenal. Clubs like Liverpool average less than 5,000 attendance, and there IS a concerted effort to market this. People, including men, increasingly watch the national side and make no effort with the domestic league. Yes, we can market it more, but a)the product needs to keep improving and b) probably more women need to actually be interested rather than tell us to be.

The product would be better the moment they remove partisan politics and agendas from the game.

Again, thank God Rapinoe's gone, replacing it with a sane soccer-focused team leader is their best way forward.

That's fair that pro league games will be slow to catch on. Nationalism is easier. But without a doubt that has boomed over the past few cups. We can see it in the quality of the teams, the players, and the attendance and ratings. But you can't just footnote the success of these more nationalist matches. It shows the support is there but it just hasn't yet trickled down.

That will take time. Way better talent has emerged recently which leads to more superstars and better quality of play. Better players and pay will improve development leagues as kids aspire to professional careers. More marketable names on the national stage will trickle down support to champions leagues and ultimately club level. So many of these comments about giving up and saying people just won't accept inferior women's soccer are similar to what we heard about MLS. A vastly inferior product vs international leagues. Americans will never accept soccer. They've proven everyone wrong. But it required decades effort and those efforts on the national level are brand new for many counties and on the club level for the US. It takes infrastructure, stadium experiences, years of marketing and TV deals. It's not like the wnba where the effort has been there but it has not correlated with any success. Here the effort was not there but it's undeniable that once they started putting the effort in there have been sizeable gains.

The MLS hasn't "caught on" in the United States. The only claim to fame that they have right now is Lionel Messi. Who's playing in the United States because it is the last refuge for professional soccer players that aren't good enough to play in any other league.

I mean what are people expecting? That it's going to be the NFL? It doesn't have to be. And women's soccer doesn't have to be as successful as MLS. MLS is more than viable.

I am not disagreeing with you that it took time for the MLS to take off, nor can I disagree that it was women's earnings that were used to prop up the MLS (precisely because I don't know enough about it to confirm or deny what you state).

I am not against helping prop up a women's pro league either. I question how successful it would be long term. There is zero precedence showing that it will and I still think you are not grasping the difference between a national team that people will rally behind and support due to national pride and local teams. Just because the USWNT is successful does not mean that their success will carry forward. We can debate why women's sports are money losers all day, but the reality is they are. Maybe (and I don't know for sure) women's college basketball is self funding.

Some of the USMNT players get big contracts in Europe, many do not though. They rely on MLS salaries which are far less in most cases. We live in an era of the internet, it is easy to follow almost anything now. People are not ignorant of local teams, they just don't show up in numbers reflective of the USWNT's popularity. This again goes back to the national support vs local support.

European teams have and for the foreseeable future will continue to poach the best American talent and the state of women's soccer won't impact that even in the slightest. Soccer here is arguably team sport #5 on the pecking list, and unless that changes we will continue to lose the best players. Think Japanese baseball players. The best in Japan always move to MLB if given the chance as the best of the best play here.

Now I am not judging women's pro leagues. I have a passing interest in soccer. I will watch a game or two now and then, so I am not in the "women's soccer sucks" category. I keep beating this horse or "Bronco", but attendance numbers and history do not lie. There are enough people out there who can grow and sustain the game......they just aren't. It's not a self fulfilling prophecy to say that the investment isn't there due to a lack of popularity. If women's soccer stadiums were selling out or being filled above capacity, the incentive to build bigger ones would be there. Media would line up to stream or broadcast their games and advertisers would line up to get ads and endorsements.

Lastly, using what works in Europe as a gauge for what will work here does not fly. The US is not Europe, especially when it comes to sports. Could pro women's sports leagues succeed? Possibly. But I was born and raised in Missouri, so "show me".

LOL….Messi just won the World Cup. He can play anywhere in the world and still be a top player.

MLS has a decidedly minor league feel, but there's nowhere near the money that there is Europe, unless you're one of these gray haired superstars on a retirement tour.

But the league has stuck around for almost 30 years old now, and the teams play in better stadiums than comparable teams in other leagues... the third tier in England or whatever. It's doing OK for what it is.

The level of play won't improve until the money improves, but with changing demographics in the US the money could improve over time.

Ha. I was with you when you said you were watching NASCAR, but WNBA is a bridge too far for me.

MLS is shit. The one and only MLS game I've been to might as well have been a political rally.

Of course women don't watch women's sports in large numbers. They don't want to pay for an inferior product any more than men do.

Sadly athletes being radicalized is something we're going to have to put up with. Especially since owners won't put the kibosh on their employee's on-field, in uniform, actions. They can say what they want off the clock (if their contract doesn't have something covering things they can't do even "off the clock" personal conduct clause, or liking the wrong Tweet, and the team can deal with retaining the player later if the things they choose to do on their own time carries over and affects the team.

Again where is this coming from. It is not backed by any data that shows audiences, predominantly women, are watching and attending national and champions league games in large numbers. Why is it hard for people to fathom that girls watching soccer and their moms and their dads might be drawn to the sport. And that they'd idolize women's soccer players the way we idolized Jordan and Montana? It's weird the way people project that someone else wouldn't like something just because it isn't for them.

MLS is an inferior product yet it's doing quite well with men and women. College sports especially outside big conferences is inferior. Minor league sports is inferior. Women's tennis is inferior. We watch inferior athleres all the time

Messi is still one of the world's top players. His stats last year in PSG were good. And he was the best player in the World Cup and played every minute of that tournament. Not sure if there's another player named Messi you're thinking of.

You said it yourself: Women's soccer needs help. It's not just a marketing thing. Women obviously aren't supporting the sport in large enough numbers. If they were, the revenue generated by the men's and women's teams would be comparable.

And those inferior sports/athletes generally don't bring in as much revenue as their superior counterparts.

Nah, appreciate the discussion. I get where you're coming from and you make lots of good points. Not knocking you at all for seeing it as a risk. It is.

I just dont think it's fair to suggest that the league should thrive without investment and that investors aren't investing because they don't see potential. You have to have stadiums in good markets with good promos and experiences, and then you need expansion to build scale for better TV and sponsorship deals. It's an unusual situation where the balls out urgency to build MLS made that very challenging. So over the next year's we'll see where it goes now that they're serious about trying. That's a better benchmark than the past. Initial results are promising. International popularity is growing exponentially which means more money, sponsorships and prizes. Newer markets are pulling 15-20k per game which is way more than the highest wnba market (and they've been actually trying). Kc current is building their own stadium. And probably the biggest litmus test, two expansion teams are paying a $50m expansion fee which is really substantial. It's just so different from the wnba which was given time and investment and flat out failed. Or us softball which was never even popular on the national stage. There's teeth to this one.

I also think the situation is way more favorable for the US. There's no reason why we couldn't be a premier women's soccer market. Unlike men's, there's little competition for the best athletes. It is THE sport right now for girls. And there's no competition with other women's leagues which have proven to be totally unviable. And I don't think there's as much competition for men's sports as we think as their market is very different.

The money will improve and slowly but surely, global talent will come at younger and younger ages and a Top 8-10 league in the world is very realistic in the next decade.

The draw of watching men's soccer is to see the skill of world class players.

The skills of women are not even remotely close. The same problem with women's basketball.

That's not to say women sports can't be marketable. There's a reason why women's tennis has equal interest to men's tennis and why women's figure skating is more popular than the men's. Women fights are also popular in the UFC because a fight is a fight.

Sure but that's different from saying nobody watches it. Premier league will always be vastly superior to mls which will be superior to nwsl. That's a given. Of course it's crazy to ever believe revenue streams will ever be remotely comparable.

Equal pay on the surface is a crazy idea. But it's also not that simple. Growing women's soccer is good for both men and women, and now they get to jointly share in that growth. It brings in a lot of new fans and sponsors that are unique to women's instead of mens, and as the game grows it brings in more revenue to close the gap. The US is also a unique situation where the women (this year as an exception, of course) close the gap substantially when they play into the semis/finals where the men are typically bubble qualifiers. Men probably still deserve more pay but they are probabky on board with the idea that a strong men and women's sport is good for everyone.

I don't believe that, simply because there's nothing that can rival the academy system and all the rest of the development structure that you see in Europe. There is a reason why there are no great American players and that Americans are virtually absent from top professional leagues. The player development structure still isn't there.

Really, it's the same as comparing MLS to other top professional leagues. I follow the Premier League avidly and watch every one of my club's matches and many others. I pay the subscriptions, I listen to the podcasts, I love the game. But there's an MLS team in the city where I live and I can't muster any interest because the level of play is so much lower. It's not quite like watching the XFL, but kind of.

I don't see men avidly following NWSL for that reason, but half the country is female and you would expect there to be no trouble selling out a 10,000 seat venue night after night if women supported the women's game the way men support the men's game.

Yeah I agree. Europeans recruit soccer the way we do basketball and football. We can identify talent practically right out of the womb. It will always be a challenge especially considering how aggressive recruiters are in picking off the best athletes. I think US men's can still get better but we're probably starting to hit our growth maturity.

I think you get a professional minor league experience. A lot of it is built around the experience. Great place to watch games in nice stadiums, sing chants, awesome for kids and meeting people. 20k-30k per game is very healthy and it's probably all they really need

JFC, zilla. Do you have a word quota you have to hit today or what? Every post in this thread from you is a couple paragraph novella. Just say "I love women's soccer and sports bras" and be done with it.

I think it's a complicated topic and most of the people have been engaged in good debate. If you don't like it you can ignore it.

I don't think national level success shows latent potential support for club level necessarily. There's plenty of sports where the national level is the cash cow. But I do agree it COULD be there and it will take time. My only point is that right now, it's not there and the best chance of it growing is not only marketing and investment it's women putting their money where their mouth is.

Yeah, that's fair

This is sort of a lazy take IMO because it has done just that.

Year after year the level of play and money get better I am not sure what else you can ask about a league that started in 1996 and really got serious around 2009. I think the level of play is most comparable to the English Championship. Other leagues are ID'ing great players in MLS and those players are starting to move up in the world with the transfer fees to match.

They have tried to get bigger cautiously though. I think the ghosts of the Cosmos still echo in the halls of MLS HQ. The machinations for teams to spend money though not so much the balance totally keels over are changing every year.

I don't think the Top 10 league thing is that crazy especially because of the large fall off you get if you move beyond England, Germany, France, Spain, Italy...the leagues beyond that? There is room to say you can start to compete with them.

You see it in competition as well an MLS CONCACAF Champion and right now in Leagues Cup you see MLS having lots of success against Liga MX teams its been pretty fun.

And hey I am an MLS fan I see first hand ways in which they fall short but sometimes when people cast the situation they are in it feels pretty unfair or based on old first impressions that don't really hold as much.