We don't have any outfield talent.

The time to trade would have been after O'Neill's 2021 (34 hr, .912 OPS) season.

You can bet whoever he keeps will decline and whoever he trades will ascend and still we won't get back anything of value.

When was the last time we had any? Matt Holliday? Cardinals outfield has been ragtag for almost a decade now. It's pathetic honestly.

What Nootbar, TON, and Dylan Carlson don't get you excited?

Outfield is a disaster at this point, SS is a mess, and our 2 perennial All Stars look like they just started playing baseball.

What's hilarious is the best player on the team right now they like to bench several days a week because of imaginary splits that they have no history with.

There has been no more evergreen myth than "The Cardinals Logjam in the Outfield"

For twenty five years we've been hearing about how we have too many good OFers to find playing time for them. And our OF has ALWAYS sucked in that period. The only time it hasn't was when they signed a veteran on his last legs like Berkman or Beltran, or when Ludwick came completely out of left field.

FFS, the STL Media tried to make it seems like a massive problem that we had to find ABs for Jon Jay and Pete Bourjos. That's the 'logjam' you'll hear from the BFIB.

We don't have three starting caliber OFers. Nootbaar is probably a credible starter. O'Neill has nothing but a hole in the hole in his swing. Carlson sucks and should be a platoon bat against lefties only. Walker can't play outfield, nor can Burleson or Yepez.

The minors don't have shit - our 2nd best OF prospect was Moises Gomez who the Rays simply let walks. And remember - if the Rays give up on a guy, he isn't good.

The St. Louis Cardinals have one of the 10 worst outfield situations in baseball and it's a tradition as old as time to pretend like they just have tooooo muuuuuch talent out there.

The reason they've stayed out of the FA market is they've plowed so much capital into young SP that they pretty much have to ride or die with it.

Liberatore, Hence, Graceffo, Hjerpe and McGreevy are 5 of their top 6 prospects (with Winn as the other). And since Mozeliak has no idea who among them may actually be good, he's terrified that he'll block them.

So sure, he'll sign Mikolas to a 2 year extension because that's about how long it should take Hence to get to the big leagues and Mikolas might have been able to get 3 years if he pitched credibly and went to the FA market (he hasn't).

Every inexplicable decision becomes more understandable when you realize that John Mozeliak has no idea who will/will not actually be good at playing baseball. He's throwing darts out there. View it through that lens and even a completely idiotic decision like Mikolas at least has a reason behind it. And if/when Hence proves big league ready in 2 seasons, THAT'S when Mozeliak will come out and justify the Mikolas deal as a shorter term contract designed to prevent them from blocking Tink.

He's just completely incompetent.

Just out of curiosity, because everyone sees things through a different lense, who did you have in mind that could bring a credible starter in trade?

You could maybe get an Alex Cobb type for Dylan Carlson.

Then again, Alex Cobb just fired our asses into the sun so probably not.

But that's the kind of guy you're looking at; dudes in their mid 30s with decent track records and maybe one more year on their deal.

Maybe you could swap struggling 'change of scenery' candidates? If I could move Carlson for Kopech I'd do it, and I think Kopech probably sucks. But that's the best you'll get if you want youth.

Yepez might get you a relief pitcher or convince the Gnats to take on more of Corbin's contract just to get him off their roster.

What do you think it will take to get O'Neil?

****in ragarms
I don’t know…every year I think they’re going to blow it out their ass, then they make the wc or maybe, possibly win the division, then get the shit blown out of them. Then mo himhaws around and talks out of his ass and then they do it all over again.
It’s like back when Carl Peterson was gm for the chiefs.
Scrape the whole damn front office…if the owner doesn’t want to compete, **** him. Forget them until they do.
That’s the cardinal way
sec

He has one more year of team control after this one.

But he also brings about the easiest thing in the game to find - braindead righthanded power that gets eaten alive by quality pitching.

Those have value in the regular season over large enough sample sizes, but he brings the added concern of an injury history that suggests that his sample size is more likely to be 300 PAs than 600.

I mean, I don't figure he'd bring a ton. He's relatively inexpensive so maybe Oakland would be interested in a pump and dump scenario? Maybe James Kaprellian if they're tired of waiting on the prospect pedigree? Trevor May? They signed him to trade him anyway.

Tampa is always looking for RH power. The window on a deal for someone like Drew Rasmussen slammed shut - maybe Jalen Beeks? Toronto could move Varsho to CF; might be able to get Kikuchi for him? They'd flat out give you Jose Berrios if you'd take 80% of his salary off their books for the next 7 years. But shit, if you're willing to give slag like Miles Mikolas $20 million/season because he's alive and willing to sign, why not give Berrios $18 million/season until I'm damn near 50? He'll STILL be younger than Mikolas is today when his deal expires.

What I don't understand is that a decade ago the Cardinals were WELL ahead of the curve on the velocity revolution. They were doing nothing but taking guys with big fastballs and good frames with the belief that the velocity would play even if the rest of the rough edges never fully rounded off.

By and large, it served them well.

They realized one year that they had one guy in the entire system (Isringhausen was the guy) who could throw 95+ and they set about completely changing their pitching approach.

Now they're back to having nobody that can throw 95 again and they're puzzled why the pitching is inconsistent as hell. Fellas, its because you have to be REALLY precise at 92 mph and you're asking guys who just aren't that good to pull that off.

I just don't understand how a team that is a few years removed from being able to throw 96 on top of 96 at teams is suddenly leaning on Gio Gallegos and Drew Verhagen to go out there and trick guys. Meanwhile Thompson throws 97 from the left side and gets mostly mopup duty.

I think he would be a perfect fit for the Royals. Big need for a right hand bat, cheap team control. Can play defense at Kauffman. Doesn't really block any prospects coming up.

He has Kaufman power- he doesn't hit wall-scrapers.

Who you got?

I'm sure duncan would get you that. I just think its a move that makes sense for both teams.

lol these guys are a bunch of clowns

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The St. Louis Cardinals are now 9-15 through 24 games this season.<br><br>This is the worst 24-game start to a season for the Cardinals since 1973, when they went 5-19. <a href="https://t.co/cFwuqJ9iSb">pic.twitter.com/cFwuqJ9iSb</a></p>&mdash; ESPN Stats &amp; Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) <a href="https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/1651083258942062592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 26, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Still time to pick up a 50 pack of tickets for 50% off in honor of 50’s final season! /Mo

Willson Contreras is a worse game caller than a random number generator.

A backup catcher who can't hit fastballs, a reliever who can throw 100 mph - and we get beat throwing 4 straight breaking balls.

Contreras is a goddamn disaster behind the dish. I have no earthly idea why this team didn't make a move for Sean Murphy. I mean, apart from "Mo doesn't know who's any good on this team so he was scared to trade the wrong guy again..."

I really feel bad for Girsch and the pitching coach in all this. Because you KNOW they're taking the fall for it.

I’d sure love for Mo to finally be held accountable but that’s not going to happen.

Do other teams managers call out their players by name? This seems to be happening a lot. Larissa was tell it like it is kind of manager but I don’t remember even his abrasive personality calling out players rehurally and publicly.

He feuded with Colby Rasmuss but I don't recall if he was ever blasting him in public

Mo might suck as a GM but he's pretty good at hiring fall guys.

Ollie might have to take that fall sooner than Mo had hoped.

"The one thing I'd ask from our fan base right now is a little bit of patience, because we do think that we do have the talent to win."

- St. Louis Cardinals POBO John Mozeliak

Bring in Molina. He turns it around? Hire the guy long term.

All the Cardinals pitching solutions were dealt for Big Bear

**** your mother, John.

By and large, LaRussa only returned fire.

He'd privately lay into guys here and there and if that guy took it public, LaRussa would respond in kind.

But I can't recall him ever firing the first salvos in a public forum. And when he did, it was always uphill. If he put someone on blast publicly, it would be the front office. And even then he wouldn't say "Man, my 2b sucks shit" it would be quite a bit more nuanced than that.

I will always maintain that's what got Shildt fired. He saw in Shildt someone that was going to eventually be willing to do what LaRussa had made an art form of - holding his organization publicly accountable. LaRussa had more organizational cache than Mozeliak and Moe wasn't going to let that happen again, so he fired Shildt before the possibility surfaced.

Because he's ****ing awful at his job.

Good lord no. How about they bring in someone who has actually coached at a high level for more than the WBC. Someone who values analytics but is not handcuffed by them.

We had a great one.

We fired him so we could bring the organization into alignment.

God forbid Schildt talk about the needs of the team if they don't agree. Mike never even wnt outside the family to expres frustration. He was a good soldier.

Molina flat quit on his team for 2 months last season.

He can **** right off. That's nobody I want managing my ballclub. And frankly, Yadi was as bad as any player we've had about the cliques and other nonsense. We carried Tony Cruz for 5 years because he was Yadi's buddy and the organization was afraid to upset Molina while he was still in his prime.

If pure math says he shouldn't have been a finalist for the GG, he takes to Instagram calling it racism. If the manager says he needs a rest, he puts said manager on blast.

Molina would be an absolute trash hire.

So yeah - he's probably the heir apparent.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING from the St. Louis Cardinals:<br><br>OF Jordan Walker has been optioned to Memphis (AAA). INF/OF Taylor Motter (#55) signed a Major League free agent contract after he had cleared waivers, and will join the team in San Francisco.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> <a href="https://t.co/z08fZU3SxT">pic.twitter.com/z08fZU3SxT</a></p>&mdash; KMOX Sports (@KMOXSports) <a href="https://twitter.com/KMOXSports/status/1651332272543367168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 26, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Good.

He's not ready. He needs to be in Memphis playing everyday.

Outman running away in the rookie of the year race so better send him back down before he loses his rookie status so the Cardinals can try for a pick next year.

that’s the way I remember it too. Player said something publicly, Larussa responded in kind.

I’m sure he lit players up behind the scenes. I’m okay with that. Publicly is a totally different animal.

I could be misremembering, but TLR barbecued Brendan Ryan's ass in the media, went off on Steve Kline, and spent a fair amount of Bissinger's book laying into JD Drew. Arguably, all of these were fair, but I don't know if they were purely retaliatory.

Wasn't the Kline thing after he showed up TLR on the mound not wanting to be pulled? I might be making that up but I recall something like that.

Yep, and this team just lost to John goddamn Brebbia. Taylor Motter is obviously the prescription for what ails them.

Close. He warmed him up then sat him down three times in a game. To be fair, that is ridiculous.

I am turning a corner. They are well on the path to 95 losses. Maybe Mo will change tactics if they get there.79 more to go.

Not sure even a 100 loss season would inspire any meaningful change but I’m rooting for it.

Shildt was pure garbage, but him taking the fall over MO was pure criminal

104.

They're on pace to go 58-104.

The only teams worse than them are teams that are actively attempting to lose ballgames. And even many of THOSE are better than the Cardinals.

It won't.

And they won't lose 100. I mean think of the comedy of errors it's taken to get to this pace. 100 losses his just hilariously awful (how the hell did the royals average 100 losses/season over like an 8 year span?)

But a 90 loss season is a distinct possibility. Sadly you're right - all that's gonna do is cost Girsch and the pitching coach their jobs. Probably a couple of traveling secretaries.

Mozeliak will go when he wants to. He has a weird Svengali grip on DeWitt.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Arenado is in no mood for last place high fives �� <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> <a href="https://t.co/pvQ08WcYxB">pic.twitter.com/pvQ08WcYxB</a></p>&mdash; Gateway City Sports (@SportsTalkSTL) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsTalkSTL/status/1651719630677762049?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 27, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Did he give away his bats to some fans?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">He was our voice, our friend, and an icon for generations.<br><br>We are heartbroken to learn of the passing of Cardinals legend and St. Louis native son Mike Shannon. <a href="https://t.co/4JPRbnUUaj">pic.twitter.com/4JPRbnUUaj</a></p>&mdash; St. Louis Cardinals (@Cardinals) <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals/status/1652731948731715585?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 30, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

First game I went to as a kid, Mike Shannon hit a home run. To a 6 year old boy it looked like it went clear out of the stadium.

rip
sec

May he dine on Fast Eddie's and that iced cold coldest beer in town for eternity

This season was too much for him to handle. RIP Mike.

I was a fan of his while he was a player. You know he lived a fun life. RIP Mike

Nice 1 win road trip fellas

At what point does Mo start wacking his fall guys? It's hard to think of the season reaching a lower point than it is at now.

Too soon for that. He'll wait until if/when attendance drops for that to happen.

Can someone smarter than me explain why Liberatore is not in the big league rotation?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You have to start Liberatore next week. Idk if it will be for Matz or Woodford but he&#39;s too good to be sitting in Memphis right now and they desperately need to switch something up in the rotation. <br><br>The man has a 2.14 ERA with a K/9 of 12.0 in Memphis.</p>&mdash; Cardinals Stats And Facts (@STL_Stats_Facts) <a href="https://twitter.com/STL_Stats_Facts/status/1652786220848537600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 30, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Our GM is stupid.

The end.

Mozeliak has hit Carl Peterson status.

95+ losses is the only avenue to meaningful change. 76 to go.

That’s what forced us into changing our GM and manager.

Now we are worse.

I went to the game last night in LA. Team just had no emotion or passion. I was born in 1980 and this may be the worst team in my lifetime. Love Arenado but he is clearly very off. Pitching is starting to get better.

everyone can see it. Whether it was publicly throwing O’Neill under the bus. Or not playing the best players. Lineups, pitching use etc etc. you can see the lack of enthusiasm among the players. You can’t sustain this. Something has to change.

Arenado probably hasnt forgiven himself for not opting out. With the trend in contracts getting guys like Bogaerts $280M, Arenado probably cost himself over $100M.

More important to gut the top...if Dewitt was serious he would fire Mo and Girsch and hire a team like Bendix and one of the asst. gms for the Rays. You know he could pay them more.

Marmol would take care of itself after that most likely.

Fans are going to have to stop showing up for anything drastic to happen though.

I agree with robbing the Rays and throwing a pile of money at one of their top baseball evaluators. They always have talent year after year. Can’t keep the talent due to economics though. We should be able to afford a MLB 9-11 top team salary.

Also agree, unless butts stop showing up in the seats. Mo ain’t going anywhere.

Arenado is generationally wealthy regardless, he is more pissed about playing on a loser which is why he wanted out of Colorado, it was never about $$.

I'm going to St Louis in a month. I really don't want to anymore, but it's a sunk cost and I think it would be rude to cancel on the 3 others I'm going with. So I guess I'll drink $13 beers and try to make the best of it.

It was just plain stupid going into the season with this starting rotation.
No excuse.
sec

I just can't imagine this was the sales pitch Mozeliak made when he convinced him not to opt out.

Sources said he made requests of the front office who promised same before he chose not to opt out. And the Cards off-season consisted of signing a C for the same amount as the one they let go in FA and then giving raises to holdovers while engaging in creative accounting to give the impression they weren't being cheap.

Mozeliak had to have straight up lied to him.

Bernie tweet

If Nolan Arenado seems stressed, no wonder. Not just his slump, either. He came to the #STLCards* believing he'd have a yearly chance to compete for titles -- unlike the Rockies. Right now the 2 worst teams in the NL are Colorado (.310) and St. Louis (.345.) Headwires, tangled.

Mo had to have promised Arenado to spend more money.

I’m no baseball salary nerd. But, it seems like they Cardinals didn’t spend money, they are even spending less if you count the $50 million in free money Mo got from Colorado.

starting rotation pitchers cost money. Are you insane?:D

Didn't DJ lay it out last year how they cooked the numbers to make it appear as of they raised/were raising payroll while actually not doing shit?

I didn’t know it was Covid that got him. After 2 years?

From STL today
Mike Shannon made it far longer than perhaps he or anybody else had envisioned. Having contracted “long-haul” COVID-19 in 2020, Shannon never quite kicked his illness, although he battled it like anything else. Shannon, who was at Busch Stadium on April 19 for the Cardinals’ most recent home game, had been ill off and on since coming down with the virus.

Yup.

They counted the AAV for Wainright and Contreras (despite their deals being backloaded) as well as money they didn't even SPEND on Arenado (paid for by the Rockies) for the purposes of claiming spending had gone up.

The franchise simply doesn't give a ****. They know that 80% of this fanbase doesn't care about any of that shit and to whatever extent they do, they're fiercely protective of a billionaires money and take it as a point of personal pride that we're not one of those big budget teams that actually spends money on quality free agents.

Bill DeWitt sees the Cardinals as an investment mechanism at this point - nothing more, nothing less. And John Mozeliak sees it as a paycheck.

Nobody should give a damn about this team. And it's a real shame because there are some EXTREMELY likeable players on it. Being led by an overmatched red-ass who was hired by an untouchable Don who simply pays him to parrot the company line and do what he's told.

This is the worst shape this franchise has been in since the Brewery owned it. And at one time, Cardinals ownership was the envy of baseball. Then they got complacent and, seemingly, bored. So it wasn't until they were sold to Dewitt they became relevant again.

Well the tree of liberty and what not - it's time for another owner. DeWitt, like the Brewery before him, has become bored and complacent. And until he's gone, we're irrelevant. Worse still, we've lost a TON of organizational cache while Bill fiddled...

Mike Shildt got 108 starts from THIS murderers row in 2021:

Kwang Hyun Kim (hasn't pitched in the bigs since)
John Gant (hasn't pitched in the bigs since)
Jon Lester (immediately retired)
JA Happ (immediately retired)
Wade LeBlanc (immediately retired)
Carlos Martinez (had a 6+ run ERA that year; hasn't pitched in the big since)
Johan Oviedo and Jake Woodford - 23 and 24 yrs old respectively and clearly not big league ready yet.

105 starts and about 90 of them from guys who never threw another big league pitch after that season ended.

And he set a record for wins in September. And got fired for it.

**** this franchise.

Jesus Christ...84 starts.

Kim -- 21 starts
Martinez -- 16 starts
Gant -- 14 starts
Lester -- 12 starts
Happ -- 11 starts
LeBlanc -- 8 starts
Ponce de Leon -- 2 starts

What's that crew have in common? Each one of them has thrown the same number of big league pitches since the conclusion of the 2021 season as me.

EIGHTY. FOUR. STARTS. from guys who never threw another inning at the big league level after Shildt had them in the playoffs.

He won 90 games with better than half his starts coming from a shit sandwich piled so high they never pitched another big league inning and it got him FIRED and replaced with this stupid, entitled, overmatched, red-assed one who sucks the penis who's blamed everyone but HIMESELF for his team's piss-poor performance.

**** you Mozeliak. Simpering ****.

That's a solid rant

The bold part is so ****ing frustrating for me.I can't understand why fans of this team are so ****ing adamant that they shouldn't be big spenders. It's like they feel some ridiculous sense of fiscal responsibility that the team they cheer for plays mid level baseball on a mid level payroll.

Just ****ing release Matz, MFer is a sunk cost.

I'm tired of this shit