Yeah and his is bigger

It would be really, really cool if this particular lottery ticket worked out.

Chances are against it? Sure, yeah. Most likely it doesn't work out.

But if it did...man.

I'm rooting for the kid.

I really don't understand many of the comments in this thread.

I'll try to paraphrase...

"Might not have an NFL skill set" - The hell he doesn't. What part of his history suggests he doesn't? Not a single bit of it. He was arguably the best WR on a team that has two really good pros that came from it and only a congenital defect kept him from being a likely 1st or 2nd round pick as a Junior entry to the draft because he probably doesn't play a 4th year if that didn't exist.

"Hasn't played in 3 years" - What? Did we forget he played in 2021? Yes, he's missed more time than you reasonably want, but that's a very unlikely reason he'd miss the cut. He's still only 23 years old and has learned the playbook.

"The chances are stacked against him making this team" - Why? Unless you're blind to the talent he had in college, he has a far greater chance than not. Right now there are only 3 WRs that are locks in Toney, Moore, and MVS.

Come on guys, let's not be silly about this. Too much talk as though he wasn't a high-end talent. The only reasonable roadblock to him making this team is if he ends up back in the tub for any period of time. I think that would be extremely detrimental to his future. Everything else points North.

That is exciting. Kid is definately going to get his chance. As it stands the race to be KC's #1 WR is wide open.

I have a wait and see approach for him. However there are more reasons for not getting my hopes up than there are for getting them up. If Ross played for Denver, or some other rival, Id have no problem dismissing him as a broke dick based on his history. But I certainly am rooting for the kid.

Prefer his injury history to OBJs.

Ironically, I think this is the correct take....

OBJ is one more blown ACL from DONE DONE

I like the suddenness he's showing in that clip.

Honestly I think this team has a better chance with John Ross than Justyn Ross but it doesn't cost us anything to give him a look.

You're talking circumference, right?

This board hates MVS because he was invisible in the super bowl.
Loves justyn ross because he posts work out vids on twitter.

Injured guys get injured. Kind of a tale as old as time.

He's a solid 3/4 years away from being that guy. Maybe it's still in there, but I'd guess odds are....it probably ain't.

Pft.

He didn't develop a whit from where he was as a Freshman and even as a freshman he was a contested catch guy who showed good hands but marginal athletic ability.

And said defect that you're hand-waiving led to a spinal fusion surgery that may/may not have simply diminished his ability further. But we couldn't tell because the guy couldn't stay on the field.

And yes, there are ALWAYS reasons if you look for them. Bad luck, bad quarterbacks, on and on and on.

But if NFL teams saw a guy with a bum foot that would heal and get him back to 1st/2nd round ability, he doesn't go undrafted. It just doesn't happen. Those injuries and medical conditions will often force a 3 maaaaybe 4 round slide, but that still puts him as a 3rd/4th round talent going into the draft.

And y'know what? Most 3rd and 4th round talents don't end up making an impact at the next level.

Ross had one season where he looked like an NFL caliber talent and he went backwards from there. Yes, it's absolutely fair to question if, even if his foot is healthy, does he simply have the baseline ability to contribute at the NFL level.

No, radius. Duh!

Really, in terms of football injury, Ross has one to be concerned about (the foot injury).

That has been cleaned up.

The congenital condition has been addressed via surgery, and will always lurk, but he hasn't actually missed time due to INJURY from that.

It's a smart, no-risk situation from the Chiefs side. If they continue to sit pat in free agency, I think that says a lot about what they think about their in-house options. Ross may be part of that.

Addressed, yes. But addressed and repaired are slightly different animals.

But given the general age of CP members, I think we're all aware of the sonofabitch that neck and back injuries can be. And we also know just how thin the line between NFL caliber athlete and really impressive dude on the street who can't actually play anymore.

If that neck issue and the subsequent surgery created any additional stiffness or even lingering weakness, it could simply make him a less dynamic athlete. And you don't have to be THAT much less dynamic to go from a 2nd day pick to a non-entity.

My point being that we simply haven't seen anything from him since then to suggest he's an NFL prospect. His SR year film certainly doesn't look like it. And sure, maybe that was the foot issue but I again get back to the fact that there isn't anything in FAVOR of it.

It's raw projection based on a development curve from his freshman year that frankly had plateaued even as a Sophomore.

Exactly.

If he were a Bronco and Knowmo came in here posting instagram videos of him running up hills, we'd mock the shit out of him for it and it certainly wouldn't be concerning us at all.

But in one sense Crow is absolutely right - there is a GIANT path to playing time here. Because I think Ross, even at his best, was a guy who's tools play better as a possession receiver. JJSS leaving opens up a really obvious role for him.

Man....we're pretty set at the possession type WR I think. I like what we've got there.

We really need that dude that can kinda do it all. Who do you think is the most likely to be that from this draft?

I think your take is a little pessimistic. It also discounts Veach and the medical staff.

If they thought the spinal situation was a problem, they wouldn't have bothered.

The foot thing, as I understand it, was a poor surgery, and they took the opportunity to 'red shirt' the kid and fix it right.

So, yeah, there's an injury history that's concerning, but they're unrelated injuries in every possible way.

I agree with your take that IF the kid is 100%, there's a path to playing time in Juju's role; I totally agree that he's that type of receiver.


I'm not penciling him in or anything, but having a season of watching tape and learning the offense while getting healthy is good reason for optimism.

I'm not planning on it, but I think there's reason for optimism.

We are?

It's Skyy and...what, Justyn Ross?

They got him as an UDFA. They did the least amount possible of "bothering" here. It works great it doesn't it cost them some cash.

Skyy, Kelce, and Toney. Toney being the one I kinda think can be more.

How many of them do you think we need?

Rooting for Ross but I don't think he's going to make it, I just think the injury history is going to be too much to overcome. That insta video looks more like a warmup to me than anything impressive, it is good to see him out on the field though.

He is what he is: a lottery ticket. He’s no different than John Ross really.

And hey, sometimes those lottery tickets work out and help your team. Justin Watson sure did as a futures deal guy last year.

I think we’re gonna see Veach work with an offensive heavy draft this month. There’s probably gonna be a DL and OL drafted but I foresee multiple WR’s and a TE drafted as well as a RB.

They barely bothered as it stood, though.

I mean they couldn't have been THAT confident in him - he went undrafted even by Veach.

I guess we're quibbling largely over semantics. I like taking a shot on him because he's a big kid that produced at a high level. He had some skills at one point and he didn't cost a thing.

But I struggle to get to 'reasons for optimism'. It's a plan for the worst and hope for the best scenario. Maybe he breaks through and makes the team - awesome. But do you think there's even a 20% chance he makes the squad and gives us, say, 300 yards receiving this year?

I can't get there and if that's the bar I'm setting and won't even give coinflip odds of clearing it, I just can't find a way to call that 'optimism'.

Skyy and Ross, if they both perform, would do so in different ways. They allow for different approaches.

Both would be possession guys, but Ross would be more about body control and catch radius whereas Moore would be early separation and space. Different approaches allowing for different matchups.

There's definitely room for them both.

The body control and radius spot is occupied by Toney in my mind thoug.

Nah - Toney will be used more downfield and in a more dynamic capacity.

And overlapping skills is a good thing, especially with the number of question marks we have in the WR room.

We hope. I think he'll be used more as a test subject for soft tissue repair.

Well sure. There's that.

But in either event, he's not gonna be used to run a lot of underneath and possession kind of routes. I wouldn't mind having him do some of those but I think it's just asking for another injury.

Kid can't help himself. Put him in the middle of the field with a little space and he's gonna try to put a move on a move and pull a hammy. Guy's always out there trying to stuff 10 lbs of shit into a 5 lb sack and his body just can't handle it.

I like my baseball comps and Bryce Harper was like that in a big way as a kid. He played 1,000 mph and was always getting himself hurt. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Honestly, just imagine how happy we would be if Justyn Ross could give us what Mecole Hardman or even what K Toney gave us last year? Literally, just 175 - 350 yards with a few flashes of athleticism to keep us excited. That would be enough for us to label him a massive success IMO after being only an UDFA.

He's not that kind of WR. He's a 4.6 :40 guy. We're hoping he ends up being JJSS basically.

You mean what Justin Watson gave us (kinda). He doesn't give anything close in terms of ability as to what Toney and Hardman bring/brought.

I know people are dreaming of him taking JJSS's role, but a much more realistic best case scenario would be him latching on as a surprise 6th receiver and giving us a few good downfield shots every now and then.

This entire post is based off his freshman year in which he more or less made his bag running scott-free over busted coverages.

He showed some outstanding hands and balance at times. No doubt. But beyond that....you're really just getting caught up in his freshman hype.

People are using last year as a reason to not invest much at WR, when I think if you really look at last years WR position....it was underwhelming.

Don't get me wrong, im rooting for him. I really am. I want him to make this team. I want him to be healthy. I want him to be this Higgins-ish, lanky, high light reel catch type possession receiver.

He's shown that he has the hands and balance to be that guy. But he hasn't shown the overall athleticism to show he WILL be that guy.

He played all of 2021 after his spinal surgery. It's not like teams don't have tape on him. And hey, maybe his foot was an issue and it's all better now. We can only HOPE that's the case, because what he put on tape wasn't worthy of being drafted. That's just a fact.

Get used to being underwhelmed.

By the first ranked offense in football, also #1 in explosive plays, first in scoring, yards, etc.

Get used to being underwhelmed, because this is how it's going to be.

Guess you'll have to be all 'meh' about winning Super Bowls.

Damnit. Everytime i see this thread I think we resigned Justin Watson.

Wrong.

He did not suck as a Sophomore. Higgins had a bigger year in yards but Ross was still #2 on the team and finished ahead of Higgins in leading the team in receptions. He still averaged 13 yards per reception, which isn't being shit.

He also came back from the spinal surgery just fine and played in 2021 but he spent the entire season playing on a stress fracture that he made worse in game 10, then had to end up shutting it down and getting surgery (which was botched). The fact he not only played but played as well as he did on that fracture is kudos to him.

He then ran his 40 on that botched repair just to run it for teams.

I'm not the one here that's getting caught up on things. The guy was a really good WR.

He has a better career than Kayshon Boutte. He's a projected 3rd rounder. His yards per reception is historically better than Xavier Hutchinson's. He's a projected 4th rounder. So, from a production standpoint, he's at least in that range no matter what argument you guys want to make.

And Bouttte, as teams are looking deeper into his athleticism, is starting to slide with some folks (myself included) thinking he may go as late as the 5th.

I mean ultimately if I wanted to squint I could talk myself into saying that a 'healthy' Ross is a late 2nd, early 3rd rounder. But that's really talking myself into it.

I just don't see the athleticism and there have been a ton of guys taken in that 100-150 range that simply didn't amount to anything.

At best I think maybe I could talk myself into treating him like I treated Niang after the COVID year where he redshirted his injury; a sort of "yeah, this guy could maybe amount to something..." But even then, I think Niang was slightly better raw prospect.

I don't like Boutte at all. Not even a little bit. He's just an example of a guy that I've seen nearly unanimously rated in the 90s. He started out as a 1st round guy.

I think my point is that we're dismissing Ross' talent a bit too much, regardless of where that might be in the grand spectrum. I'm assuming we can agree it's not late-round talent. Maybe it's day 2, maybe it's early day 3, but it's definitely not late/UDFA from a talent perspective. And it might have been higher had he never had the spinal condition and took the reigns 100% when Higgins left in 2020.

That said, the things that pushed him to be a UDFA happened and they aren't ignorable. I just think that he proved he could play again after the spinal fusion and he looks to be back healthy from the stress fracture. If those things are all in alignment he has a very non-zero chance at making this team. That's kind of my point, he's not just your normal hot garbage UDFA that has a near-zero chance.

Ross is like a slower Andre Johnson type WR. He can box people out and make tough contested catches.

We were also near the bottom of the league in WR production in yards, 1st downs, and TDs. KC ended up being 1st in those categories largely because Travis balled out and stayed healthy, and the RBs stepped up. I highly doubt that the plan going forward is to have one of the worst-performing WR rooms in the NFL.

In fact, we know that wasn't the plan, because the intent before the season was to re-sign Tyreek. Veach tried to sign AJ Brown. And so on.

What the ****?

No. Just no. Dude is lanky. He's 6'4" 204, not 6'4" 224. He ran a 4.6 on a broken ass foot. The dude is more like 4.54, not 4.64, when he's healthy and he's relatively quick.

He played a lot as a flanker or as a tight split end and ran a lot more quick underneath stuff in a very similar role to what JuJu was for us last year. He ran a bit more deep stuff when Lawrence was his QB. He was NEVER a box-out slow WR.

Where do you guys get this shit?

Andre Johnson was 210 coming out of college and ran a 4.41.....

W T F are you even rambling about... He is a huge big bodied WR that boxes people out and makes contested catches.....

Dude, I can count on my 2 thumbs the number of times this guy caught box-out contested catches in college. You have no idea what you're even talking about.

Boutte it depends what you want from him...if you think he's gonna just be an outside receiver and beat dudes and catch 100 balls no..

Some over thinking going on… the best comp style wise is also the easiest and most obvious. It’s Tee Higgins

That’s more of a high point catch than a box out.

Go ahead and post the whole highlight reel you pulled that from. And the whole other highlight real from him as a Fr and So. Then count the number of contested catches he made. And yes, that's a high-point catch, not a box-out contested grab.

I haven't watched the highlights in a while but I can confidently say you won't count very many. In fact, almost none.

From that description it sounds like he needs to be our next TE.. Just put on some muscle

Are you trying to tell me this is a "contested catch"



dude this place lol

Yeah, I think that's a fair distinction.

He doesn't really box out as much as he uses his length. They're still contested catch situations but he's not like Bowe in that he was simply bodying guys off. He just uses that length and some angles he could create to snatch a ball that was away from his body (and thus usually away from the DB).

He's still using his body to screen guys off on a lot of those plays, but it's not like he's using physicality in the process - he's using length. And he has plenty of that.

I suspect that's really just an invitation for an argument over semantics though - I don't recall there being that few contested catches, they just didn't really seem like it because he was able to reach out and snatch a ball rather than battle through contact for it. So then we're quibbling over 'contested catches'.

I think it's probably fair to say that he's a guy who wins through body control and length. I don't think he's very sudden nor does he have excellent deep speed. There's some build-up speed there, but I would put it at about average. Nor does he win through physicality.

He's an odd comp, really. There aren't a lot of guys who win that way. Colston? Victor Cruz?

How 'bout Keenan Allen? Allen's not super sudden, not super fast, but he's pretty long and he's crafty. Taller WR but not terribly physical.

I think I can live with that as a 'type' - a Keenan Allen type who will have to continue to refine his route-running technique (and stay healthy) to succeed at this level.

See - this is why I say this invites a semantics quibble.

The only thing that keeps that from being a 'contested catch' is that the safety misjudged his angle.

If that safety puts a shoulder into Ross's ribs as he extends for the ball, he's gonna blow the shit out of him. Ross put himself into a lot of traffic and exposed himself to a monster shot to go up and snag that ball.

I would say that there's absolutely a way to define 'contested catch' that includes this ball. I'd say if there's a 'business decision' that can be made and/or a possibility that the DB can make a play on the ball, that's a contested catch.

I'd guess that your definition really only includes plays where a DB could potentially get a hand on the ball? I think that's too narrow.

The problem with that play isn't arguing the semantics of a contested catch necessarily, it's that there are only a handful of even those on his tape. He wins routes for clean catches most of the time.

His physical comps are more like AJ Green or Preston Williams. The question is which player he can be closer to. AJ Green would be awfully lofty. Being better than Preston Williams is easily attainable. His usage might fall somewhere more in line with Courtland Sutton.

For a price, Hugarte, for a price.

And Veach decided the price was too high, and that The Chiefs could be effective by being diverse instead.

And Kelce caught essentially ONE MORE PASS per game than 2021. And five more catches all season than 2020. So let's not act like suddenly we're relying on Kelce any more than they typically have over the last several years. One more pass per game, and the offense was MORE productive, scored more points, and had more explosive plays than the year before when it was Hill/Kelce/Jags.

You're trying to bend facts to fit your narrative and it's bullshit.

The only people that give a rat's ass about the running back room getting more targets is a small percentage of fans that just can't wrap their heads around the idea of not having a high volume WR (WR#!).

Production is production. Most teams still stayed with the two deep defenses all season long, so yeah, the RB outlet pass is there all damned day long, and Mahomes took it. If he'd done that more in '21, we might've won the AFCCG and the Super Bowl.

And despite all evidence to the contrary, you and others stuck in your mindset still insist that Veach is going to sign some DHop or OBJ guy to fill your incessant need to see one WR get 100 plus targets because you just can't wrap your head around the idea that it's not necessary. You literally just saw them win a Super Bowl, against a worthy opponent with the best defense in football, with Skyy, Toney, Kelce, and Pacheco scoring TD's.

Yet, you're panicked because it looks like they're fine with that being the group expected to carry the load this year.

No way, you say! Veach is going to make a blockbuster deal for an over 30 expensive WR1 because I've just got to have one to feel good about!

No he's not. They're probably bringing Watson back. They'll probably bring Mckinnon back. And they're probably going to draft a WR in rounds 2-3 and they're going to roll.

And they'll be serious contenders yet again, no matter what you whiners think about it.

What's your prediction for their record this season? How many W/L and how far in the playoffs? Go on record now, so I can laugh at you all season long.

Are you still going to look down your nose and over your glasses and talk down to us plebs if they end up with Hopkins or obj?

Are you still going to be a childish little bitch when they don't?

I love how when someone tells you something you don't want to hear, they're looking down they're arrogant.

The only way that happens is one of those guys agreeing to a much less than $10m deal.

They're not paying #1WR money. They don't have it now, they didn't have it earlier, and they've got less now than they had to start with.

We'll have a stud #1WR if Toney or Skyy or a drafted player becomes one. Each and any are more likely than Dhop or OBJ.

You said all year they wouldn’t spent this or do that

Then they go spend 80 mill on a tackle from another team and however much on a DE.

Then we hear they were interested in making a trade for a wr that got traded and paid last year, after they were prepared to pay a wr 20 some million but he wanted 30.

I’m good either way. I don’t think they wanted to necessarily go into last year how they did, but it worked out great

I don’t think it’s how they wanna go into this season either but we’ll see I gues

I said they wouldn't pay Brown, and I was right. I said Veach wouldn't let him hold the team hostage, and I was right. What I specifically said many times is that Brown is a middling starting LT and we can't afford to overpay for production like that.

They paid less than $10m for Omenihu.

I said we'd be bargain shopping, and we have been.

I've been telling you all along that no team had won a SB with a QB taking more than 13% of the team's cap space, and Mahomes did it in '22 at 17%. He's 18% in '23, but you guys still think we're going to sign a big money FA WR. But I'm arrogant for pointing out the actual facts?

When did you guys become weak little wienies that can't handle being contradicted? I bring you facts, I bring you evidence, and you guys whine that I'm being arrogant and talking down to you.

Little babies.

Sure, they'll sign Dhop or OBJ. If it's a one year deal for way south of $10m. You think either of those guys will do that? Or that someone else won't pay more?

This is a Justyn Ross thread, for ****'s sake. And you guys can't stop with this fantasy world Dhop bullshit.

It seeps into and across every single football discussion.

It's ****ing ridiculous.

Yep. But GOTS TO HAVE D-HOP!!!!!!!!!

Bargain shopped to the tune of 80 million dollars on a guy.

I don’t think either Hopkins or obj are in the cards nor do I really think they should be.

I’m more talking about your “they won’t pay a wr big money because they won a sb without one” stuff. They also won a sb with shit tackle play, yet now we’re replacing both.

They’re clearly fine paying for a wr, if it makes sense to.

It's actually 60m guaranteed, and his cap number is $5.8m in 2023. So we've actually saved over $10m as opposed to tagging Brown again.

The math is the math. They're going to have to do a Jones extension, which will get the yearly money down a little, but not enough to do a #1WR deal, and it's not good cap value when they're shown they don't NEED a guy like that to move the ball and score points.

It didn't make sense in February, and it makes even less sense in April.

Again though, they did what they did without good tackle play, yet they’re trying to upgrade it

Results from last year themselves aren’t always going to translate year to year. I think they’re gonna have to try to get jones deal wrapped sooner than later but I’m kinda wondering if they don’t end up going the Tyreek route with it

Brown is what he is, which is not worth the money he wanted.

As fans, we don't know what Skyy is capable of. We don't know what Toney is going to be. Veach and Reid have a much better idea. What they have said and done in free agency speaks volumes.

Lol, you can go back and check, but my original stance bout the WR room was that we were going to sign Adam Thielen (vet reclamation project), and that neither OBJ nor DHop were possible. Said it multiple times over multiple threads.

I also said that my theory was that the Chiefs were going to go all-in on 13P and Veach was going to draft a couple TEs this year, maybe even sign a good vet.

As for the WR room, well, those are simply the facts. We have MVS as a proven WR, albeit limited role player who will likely account for a solid 700+ yards, 30+ 1st downs and 5-7 TDs.

And then a room full of hopes and dreams. A room that right now is far less talented than it was the day we won the SBVII.

You can twist it any way you want, tell me that Watson/Gray/Fortson/Pacheco/whoever are going to make up the difference and be good enough to deal with the CIN defense in spite of being less talented than the group we brought to the game the last three meetings, that Travis will be fine, in spite of turning 34 in October, but it just doesn't wash.

My point has been the same since JuJu signed with NE. The WR room needs a large infusion of talent. Travis is four years older than either OBJ/DHop, but somehow he's going to keep right on leading the team in catches/TDs/1st downs.

We aren't going to get giant leaps of production from Gray/Fortson/Watson. Improvements, sure. Not 2000+ yards, 90 1st downs and 24 TDs. We'd probably be over the moon if we got half of that from those guys.

12-5, if all goes well again. No real serious injury issues across the team. Travis stays healthy. Mckinnon comes back and plays at least as well as he did in 2022. Toney stays healthy for the season and blows up.

Or, we could have injury issues, Pat has a bad day or two, etc., and do worse. 10-7 maybe.

We'll get into the playoffs, no reason really to think we won't. Once in, anything is possible, of course. However, if we don't get at least one more solid WR, it'll be hard to get lucky enough to beat CIN again in the playoffs.

We beat them with Marcus Kemp taking meaningful snaps, and they lost half their secondary.

I figured they'd do something like that,too, but apparently they're higher on Skyy and Toney than we think.

They'll probably add at least Watson, I'd think as insurance.

You have to keep in mind, the other teams are losing guys, too.

Where's this 2000 yards and 24 TD's we lost in the last two months?

We lost Juju, and I don't think there's anything really special there, do you, really? Hardman missed half the year and put up meh numbers. Skyy had 4 vets in front of him. I think people expected too much in his rookie year. I said as much before the season began, but I don't want to be arrogant or anything!

Nobody's arguing that we don't need to add talent, we just disagree on how that should be done. If we do it through the draft, we might get to keep the Sneeds, and Boltons, and Smiths. And therefore the overall TEAM is stronger.

I say we're going to have to grow our own, and our rivals are just about to find out what paying an elite QB means. I'm not worried. Cinci is already losing guys. Buffalo is losing guys and coordinators. Philly just lost both coordinators.

You're looking at the Chiefs as if they've lost guys, and the other teams are only getting better, but there's absolutely no reason to think that. They have more holes than two months ago, too.

Barring catastrophic injury issues (to Mahomes, basically), The Chiefs will go 13-4, win the division again, and make it to at least the AFCCG. I won't predict they win the SB because it's historically very difficult to repeat. But they'll have a shot.

You add up JJSS, Watson, McKinnon, and Hardman's stats, and you get about those numbers. I allowed for a little fudge factor, but it's close enough.

What I'm looking at is simply what's missing, and realistically where that production is going to come from, no hopes and wishes allowed. From the FO perspective, I don't think you can just be hopeful that Toney stays healthy for the season and/or that Skyy just up and triples his production.

I know that if i were Veach I definitely wouldn't be just laying back thinking "No worries, I'm a draft wizard. I've got two rings that tell me so. I'll just draft a true WR1 (something we haven't been able to come close to in five years), Andy'll develop him, he'll be an instant success, and we're all good. SBLVIII here we come."

Juju had numbers, but what did he do, really, that was special? Meaning, what did he do that any number of middling WR's wouldn't have done? He didn't get separation, really. We don't really do 'contested' balls much. Of course, that's because Andy schemes up mismatches and gets guys open. Like Kelce said, "Andy Reid could get my dad open."

Mckinnon and Watson are still out there. I'd be shocked if they're not back, especially Mckinnon. But Watson, too, as a guy that can play a few roles in this offense due to his size and speed, and he knows the offense.

They obviously just flat didn't want Hardman.

Really, we're out Juju, who was productive, but not spectacular. He wasn't special, just a steady possession receiver. There's nothing there that, say, Justin Watson couldn't do. No, that's not crazy. Juju with a bum knee wasn't special. Just consistent. Watson is as big, and much faster.

See, the thing is, you're looking at KC through a lens of previous production only, disregarding the fact that Toney was a second year guy, and Moore was a first year guy and saying we're in big trouble.

But you're also looking at the competitors as if they're returning everyone and will be as good or better than 2022. This is not the case. They're all having their own roster issues. Buffalo's kind of screwed. Cinci is down their two safeties, which means their secondary now blows.

And you're also not counting in the very likely possibility that this defense will be improved as well, possibly a LOT better, and perhaps we don't have to be the #1 offense to win a Super Bowl. Maybe top 5 would be enough. Do you think there's a reality in which Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes don't finish top 5? I don't, unless it's a season ending Mahomes injury, and we're ****ed no matter what if that happens.

In which of Tom Brady's 6 Super Bowl winning seasons in New England did he have an elite WR corps? And if you want to pound the table for ****ing Edelman, I'll laugh you out of the room. I'm talking gamebreakers, not dink and dunk slot guys.

They put a really good 52 around Brady every year, and didn't panic. That's what they did. And it worked more often than any other franchise ever.

This is where we're at right now, paying our guy while the other contenders aren't yet.

Let's do an imagination exercise.

Envision that Toney triples his production. That doesn't seem overly far-fetched to me. He now has 42/513/6

Now envision that Moore doubles his production. I think that could be very reasonable given how he closed the season. He now has 44/500/0

So, lets say we bring Watson back and his 15/315/2.

That means of the JuJu/Hardman combine loss we need to make up 63/638/3

I don't know if it's unfathomable to think maybe a guy like Ross could come in and get 20/220/1. I mean, that's pretty much what Moore did his entire rookie year right.

So you're left with 43/418/2

It doesn't seem ridiculous to me that Reid can manufacture that from a couple of rookies. A lot of 2nd round WRs have put up that lately.

The part of the equation we have to hope gets answered is McKinnon's 56/512/9 and that's not missing from your WRs.

I'm not disregarding Toney; I'm just laying out the facts about him. And Skyy. And I like Skyy. obviously I like Toney.

Here' let's try this another way. Take our WR room and lay it down next to the WR rooms of the top 10 teams in the league right now. Do you honestly think that they match up very well? Is there a team in that top-10 that you think would trade us straight up room for room?

excellent analysis, and I'd about bet the house that your estimates are short, barring injury.

And I'd also just about bet the house that Mckinnon comes back. I know they like him, he loves it here, and it's a perfect fit skill wise and money-wise.

Again, you're basing your entire argument on PAST PRODUCTION.

When you have a second year guy and a guy that had half a season with you, yeah, the PAST PRODUCTION looks thin.

You're talking about two guys that are what, 23 years old?

And you're comparing a WR room that is incomplete in April to others that more set.

AND you're comparing as if the WR rooms can be measured in a vacuum, which is also a false equivalency.

If Mckinnon catches like 70 balls and scores 10TD's, is that a knock against the WR corps? I mean, why?

Why is one guy's production a knock on another guy? Who cares?

Andy had lots of years with RB's putting up sick receiving numbers in Philly. What's the problem? Not a bad way to go, while you're going young at WR and hoping to draft and develop good WR's rather than pay market price for...wait for it..PAST PRODUCTION.

Just saying.

Dude, it's going to be fine. I have zero doubt that Veach and Andy have a plan and multiple pivots that they're comfortable with.

McKinnon's production is a problem. Basically I began looking at JJSS and McKinnon as one guy; when JuJu stopped producing, Mckinnon kind of took over for him.

Regardless, since we can't currently depend on Jerrick returning yet, that's a fairly large pile of yards (which I don't really care about by themselves), 1st downs (pretty important), and TDs out there unaccounted for.

I did some basic math a couple weeks ago, and as it stands we're missing about 24 TDs from last season. Now, we blew out like three-four teams i think, so we don't actually need all of those TDs to 'win those games from last season.' i think I figured maybe we needed about 17-18 of them. The rest were fluff.

And let's not forget that this was a down year for scoring, the first season in over five years or some such. Whatever Chris Simms said a few weeks ago. So, it's likely that scoring will go back up. So, we'll have to score more to win as many games. Because it's highly likely that the NFL hates us, and we'll end up playing the toughest schedule again, I mean, why not just believe that at this point.

And of course, we kicked a bunch of FGs, so not all of our scoring needs to come from TDs. But a large percentage of them we did need, because so many games last season were decided by 4 points or less.

And again for the 37th time (hyperbole), I'm not saying all of that production has to come from one player or even one room. My question has always been, "okay, then where do you think it's coming from? Realistically, where are all those yards, 1st downs, 3rd down conversions, and TDs coming from?"

Because they have to come from somewhere. And I'm just not comfortable believing that there's nearly enough talent in the WR room as it stands with the addition of some rookie WR.

As always, I hope I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay wrong. Or maybe Veach/Andy will approach it from an angle I haven't even thought of. But the WR room is a bunch of "w hope this guy does something significant," and not a whole lot else.

Damn, I need a drink, but it's Tuesday. **** it.

Buddy, do you believe that there's a minimum number of TDs a team needs to score to have a winning record/get into the playoffs? That you can't score just 20 TDs in a season and get to the playoffs? Or that your defense can't give up 100 TDs and get into the playoffs?

I'm talking about what we bare-ass minimum need, not just what we did last year. Imo, there's a minimum set of numbers that a team has to achieve to have a realistic shot at getting into the playoffs, and therefore punch a ticket to the SB. Now, based on just how many tight games KC played last season, I think we weren't that far above whatever those minimum numbers/stats were. maybe not razor thin, but thin.

If that is the case, then we have to believe that we need just about every point we scored last season to realistically expect to get back to the SB this season. Not all, but most.

So right now, we're missing about 24 TDs and all those other numbers. I don't know how much of all of those stats we actually need, but if we need most of them, then I'd really like to know where they're coming from, realistically.

Well, first of all, we don't know how many TD's we'll need to score, because we don't know how many we'll give up. The defense should by any stretch of the imagination be better having played all of those rookies last year. It's not a great reach to figure they'll be better for the experience, and adding Omenihu should be an improvement.

Second, we don't know if we have to 'replace' Mckinnon; in fact, we could very well just pick up the phone and plug him right back in. In fact, it's so likely that the only way they DON'T would be because they have a BETTER idea than bringing in a guy that's proven in the system and is cheap. I mean, I have no idea what that would be. Do you?

And third, once again, you're looking at PAST PRODUCTION and it's clear we're going YOUNGER in the WR corps. I mean that's inarguable. That means you're projecting your talent. I get that's less comforting than simply looking at what a guy did last year and expecting that. But you know, we're paying our QB 18% of the cap now. That's going to happen every year now, from one position group to another. It's just the way it is. Is it a risk? Yeah. You better hope you're right. But it's also necessary. Last year was the secondary. And you know what? It turned out pretty good. This year appears to be the WR corps. Alright. Andy wouldn't sign off on it if he wasn't confident.

You kind of have to play the kids to develop them. If you keep them on the bench in favor of PAST PRODUCTION, they don't grow.

Right now, no, probably not a top 15 WR room. But I bet we think differently next February. Or Veach and Reid suddenly became idiots and we're screwed.

I know what I'd bet on.

Man, I'd really like to know what the deal is with McKinnon. Brb; I just decided it was Thursday.