NFL trade watch

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by RunKC

What was the alternative here? It sure doesn’t sound like there were options for a team entering an “all in” season.

{Re-reads the last hour worth of posts}

I'm...uh...pretty sure the impetus behind this entire discussion is the availability of a potential alternative...

[staylor26]

Clowney is not better than Clark.

Clark has 6 more sacks and one less season.

[ModSocks]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Clowney is not better than Clark.

Clark has 6 more sacks and one less season.

Nor does Clark come with the injury history or questionable effort that Clowney had to shake at the start of his career.

[staylor26]

The Seahawks and Pete Carroll took that pick and selected LJ ****ing Collier. That teams personnel department has been a mess lately.

[staylor26]

I remember reading this PFF article in the offseason:

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-buyings...ushers-in-2018

JADAVEON CLOWNEY – SELL
There are three big reasons why Clowney is a ‘sell.’ The first is that he’s going to, rightly, ask to set the market. He was one of the most-hyped edge defenders of all time coming out of college and has made the last three pro bowls after being the number one overall pick.

The second is that he’s already had surgeries on both knees including the dreaded microfracture surgery on his right knee. While it’s been a few years since and he hasn’t had them flare up, it’s never the same knee as it was before.

The last – and by far the biggest – is that Clowney has not rushed the passer at an elite level. His 78.8 pass-rushing grade this past season was the highest of his career. While that was a career high, the uptick in his production hasn’t necessarily come from development as a pass-rusher. The Texans have simply gotten more creative and given him more opportunities to rush inside, where he was actually more productive than outside.

FRANK CLARK – BUY
Clark is young and consistent – a fantastic combo to project going forward. He’ll turn 26 later this year and has three straight seasons with 10-plus sacks. It’s not simply the yearly consistency, but also the game to game. He didn’t have a single game this past season with fewer than two pressures.

I know it’s PFF, but I thought it was spot on then and still do.

Bonus for laughs:

DEE FORD – SELL
Ford is the anti-Frank Clark at this point; the consistency over his career has been non-existent. Seemingly minor injuries have neutered his effectiveness over the years. His 84 pressures this season including the playoffs were 30 more than any other season of his career. The high end is there, but in such a deep free agent class, there’s no reason to break the bank for him. The franchise tag is nearly a certainty.

[DJ's left nut]

But if you're going to use PFF don't you have to acknowledge that Clowney smoked Clark across the board last season? (Hell, shouldn't PFF be acknowledging that in their own buy/sell rankings?)

OVR:
Clowney -- 88
Clark -- 77.4

Pass Rush:
Clowney -- 78.8
Clark -- 74.7

Run:
Clowney -- 91.2 (dayum)
Clark -- 69.1

I don't see PFF as dispositive but you're the one mentioning them here and it's a landslide for Clowney in 2018.

And everyone wants to talk about Clark as this ascending player because he's only 26 and has room to grow....Clowney is only 26 and has room to grow. Oh, and is coming off a year where he was almost certainly superior to Clark across the board. At 26 he's being written off as some slack-ass broke-dick but he just had a career year and is entering his prime. He's missed 3 games in the last 3 years. The dude's playing incredibly well and people still want to harp on his first 2 years?

No, I don't think Clark's a better player. I think for his career he's been more durable (though it's been a wash over the last 3) and a tick more consistent (though we're ignoring his time primarily a 3rd down player his first couple of years), but in terms of pure talent I think Clowney is far superior.

I think the easiest way to distinguish the two is ceiling vs. floor. Clark has a higher floor - Clowney has a MUCH higher ceiling. I think it's awfully odd to pay what we paid for a guy on the basis of his floor and the belief that maaaaaaybe we can unlock more from the guy when a coach that has been to 2 SBs largely on the strength of his defenses didn't.

[staylor26]

Clowney and Clark have both played in 62 games. Clowney has 55 starts, while Clark has started in 33.

Clowney has never even had a double digit sack season. He’s not an elite pass rusher.

The most important part of that article was this:

Clowney has not rushed the passer at an elite level. His 78.8 pass-rushing grade this past season was the highest of his career. While that was a career high, the uptick in his production hasn’t necessarily come from development as a pass-rusher. The Texans have simply gotten more creative and given him more opportunities to rush inside, where he was actually more productive than outside.

Clark is the better player and will be the better player going forward. Sorry, but you’re wrong.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Clowney and Clark have both played in 62 games. Clowney has 55 starts, while Clark has started in 33.

Clowney has never even had a double digit sack season. He’s not an elite pass rusher.

The most important part of that article was this:

Clowney has not rushed the passer at an elite level. His 78.8 pass-rushing grade this past season was the highest of his career. While that was a career high, the uptick in his production hasn’t necessarily come from development as a pass-rusher. The Texans have simply gotten more creative and given him more opportunities to rush inside, where he was actually more productive than outside.

Clark is the better player and will be the better player going forward. Sorry, but you’re wrong.

And Clark had a 74.7 grade as a pass rusher last season and you're anointing him a premier rusher for some reason.

Why is a season where Clark was a worse rusher than Clowney somehow evidence for your position that Clark is...uh...a better rusher than Clowney. He most assuredly wasn't last season by your chosen metric. And I've not said Clowney is an elite rusher - only that he's a pretty good one (I said he was an elite run defender).

I mean you can either scrap PFF as a source altogether or acknowledge that Clark has NOT been a better pass-rusher for his career than Clowney has been by their grading. If you want to use PFF, you can't just site a blurb (that lacks internal consistency between the two players) - you have to also acknowledge that for literally every year the two players have been in the league, PFF has graded Clowney higher and SIGNIFICANTLY higher in 3 of those 4.

I'm not sure how you can keep hanging your hat on PFF when in the best year of his 4 year career he was barely better than the worst year of Clowney's over that same period. Or when his best season has never come within 2 points of Clowney's average.

PFF isn't your friend here - they do far more damage to your claim than just citing raw sack figures (though I assume you recognize the folly of using sacks as dispositive of impact).

[TEX]

Clowney fired his agent today.

[RunKC]

I’ll be honest: Clowney’s knees scare me. He’s entering his prime with 3 knee surgeries, one of them major. Arthroscopic knee surgery tells me he’s having joint problems. At 26, he isn’t going to magically get better.

He’s eroding and with more age, he’ll likely miss time.

He also had Whitney Mercilus and JJ Watt playing next to him and he can’t have a strong season sack wise like Dee Ford or Frank Clark?

That just seems like an awful amount of risk for that much money. Give me the guy with good health, strong leader, strong run defender and 32 sacks in 3 years starting.

[BryanBusby]

Originally Posted by RunKC

I’ll be honest: Clowney’s knees scare me. He’s entering his prime with 3 knee surgeries, one of them major. Arthroscopic knee surgery tells me he’s having joint problems. At 26, he isn’t going to magically get better.

He’s eroding and with more age, he’ll likely miss time.

I think that's the biggest issue I had with Clowney and why I'm really not bothered they went for Clark instead.

[staylor26]

Dude, ignore the ****ing grade. I’m talking about the fact that the Texans had to move him around to get a whopping 9 sacks.

Clark is the better pass rusher because he’s been more productive. And because I’ve watched them both and can see it. It’s really simple.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Dude, ignore the ****ing grade. I’m talking about the fact that the Texans had to move him around to get a whopping 9 sacks.

Clark is the better pass rusher because he’s been more productive. And because I’ve watched them both and can see it. It’s really simple.

So you're going to cite PFF except for when they don't say what you want them to and then insist you ignore that they actually considered Clowney a far superior player every year of their respective careers?

That seems...reasonable.

And part of the reason people are so big on Clark is because the Seahawks moved him around. Suddenly you're seizing on Clowney's versatility as a negative? That's especially odd seeing as I specifically noted Clowney's ability to be more dynamic than Clark inside as a positive for him.

I'm not shitting on Clark. I'm not saying he's a bad player - I've said he's probably a very good one and would be elated if he's a great one. I'm not even saying he may not be a better pure rusher than Clowney (at least I'm pretty sure I haven't said that; I'm largely undecided there). I'm saying that Clowney is at least a comparable player, the idea that Clark is more 'well rounded' isn't supported by...anything really, and that by paying roughly twice as much in trade for Clark as Clowney may have been available for, we overpaid.

And more than anything I'm just really intrigued by how low people can push the bar for what constitutes a successful transaction here before all is said and done.

I mean if he goes out there and is just a slightly better version of Duane Clemons, just how much are we gonna have to exaggerate his run defense to put a feather in Veach's cap?

[staylor26]

I was simply highlighting their objective conclusion that he was more productive inside than out, and the Texans had to utilize him there to get the most out of him, which still wasn’t quite double digits.

Their grades are subjective, so yes it is reasonable.

Clark has 6 more sacks in the same amount of games playing with less talent around him (pass rusher wise). I don’t see why that’s so hard to acknowledge. He’s easily the better pass rusher if you’ve watched. I’m just throwing the stats out to support it.