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**wazu** · 04-20-2023, 11:22 AM

A pretty bad look for the NFL. Glad Arrowhead has a grass field. Seems like a big key to our success this past half-decade has been good fortune on the injury front. I can't imagine a team making the conscious decision to opt for the "more injuries" approach.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...grass-in-2022/

Spoiler!

During the 2022 season, ESPN published data supplied by the NFL that purported to show that injury rates on grass and artificial turf were approximately the same. The NFL Players Association says that data was misleading, and that the NFL highlighted one outlier year’s worth of injury rates when the full body of research makes clear that players are injured more often on artificial turf.

According to the NFLPA, the NFL selectively released injury data from 2021 only, and 2021 happened to be an unusual year because injury rates on artificial turf and grass were very similar that year — although even in 2021, players were slightly more likely to be injured on turf. But in every other season besides 2021, the NFLPA says, injury rates were significantly higher on turf.

That includes the 2022 season, when injury rates on turf were as high as ever — and when the NFL didn’t make an effort to get those injury rates published by the media.

NFLPA President J.C. Tretter wrote on the NFLPA’s website that the injury data from the 2022 season makes clear that 2021 was a statistical outlier, and that in every other season for which there is injury data to compare grass and turf, grass has proven significantly safer.

“In short, last year, the gap – much like the NFL’s credibility with players on this issue – was as wide as it has ever been, proving that (as the NFLPA suspected) 2021 was in fact an outlier,” Tretter writes. “Now, 10 of the previous 11 years show the same exact thing — grass is a significantly safer surface than turf.”

Tretter said the players can’t trust the NFL when it would selectively release misleading data on players’ health and safety.

“The credibility the league has with the players on health and safety issues is virtually nonexistent,” Tretter writes. “Instead of following the long-term data (which is clear on this issue), listening to players and making the game safer, the NFL used an outlier year to engage in a PR campaign to convince everyone that the problem doesn’t actually exist.”

The union would prefer that every NFL stadium have a grass field, but it making little progress in convincing the league to take the issue seriously. In fact, this year one more stadium will have a turf field, as the Titans have announced that they’re replacing their grass with an artificial surface.

Megatron96 · 04-20-2023, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazu

Yeah, you'd think they could engineer something that was optimal and even better than grass. Ultimately though grass can tear and rip and it just grows back. Anything artificial has to be tough enough to not do that. Maybe that's just something that can't be overcome.

Most of the time Nature is a much better engineer than Man.

BleedingRed · 04-20-2023, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96

I bet the NFLPA is only interested in turf installed at NFL stadiums. I also bet that they paid for a study run by actual professionals.

I also bet they paid for a specific outcome to that study as well

Megatron96 · 04-20-2023, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BleedingRed

I also bet they paid for a specific outcome to that study as well

Maybe. Maybe not. I will bet that the NFLPA would much rather play on the safer surface, since that's how they're all going to get paid the most, if more of them can actually play instead of getting injured.

Turf has always been more dangerous than grass. Maybe there's some technological advancement that came along in the last few years, but since the first turf field hosted a game, turf has always caused more injuries than natural grass, for the reasons stated above. It makes you a bit faster, allows players to cut faster, and generally be more athletic, but it comes at the cost of more soft tissue injuries.

BWillie · 04-20-2023, 02:10 PM

This is a slippery slope imo. Of course artificial turf is a little more injury prone. But what also causes probably even more injuries? A 17th game. Thursday Night football where players are able to get little rest. Playing games in subzero temps. Using existing helmets compared to more cumbersome ones they could opt to use.

MIAdragon · 04-20-2023, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan

And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Indoor grow houses seem to do ok. I’m sure the trillion dollar NFL could come up with something that works.

**Iowanian** · 04-20-2023, 02:50 PM

I don't enjoy watching turf games. I want to see grass and mudd in helmets and on jerseys.

That said, they should go further and look at WHERE the most injuries are happening. Are there 2-3 stadiums where most of the knee injuries happen? Is it a certain style of turf or field turf?

That's something that SHOULD be done and the league should require a change if it's the case.

In58men · 04-20-2023, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan

And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Raiders have real grass, they roll it outside for sunlight.

**wazu** · 04-20-2023, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I don't enjoy watching turf games. I want to see grass and mudd in helmets and on jerseys.

That said, they should go further and look at WHERE the most injuries are happening. Are there 2-3 stadiums where most of the knee injuries happen? Is it a certain style of turf or field turf?

That's something that SHOULD be done and the league should require a change if it's the case.

Agree here. This is really something that should be done for more than just surfaces. With the wealth of resources the NFL has, and the massive, multi-million dollar investments they make in their players there should be a powerful analytics-driven system to isolate where the problems are with player safety and address those which can be improved.

**notorious** · 04-20-2023, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Yep. It's much, much cheaper to maintain. And let's face it, HS players getting injured isn't top of mind for most people.

The NFL, and the global stage it occupies, is a whole different ballgame. They can't afford to have their stars sidelined every year due to injuries.

We did a study whether to switch to artificial turf or keep grass.

Grass was far cheaper with with the 4 month season we play and we live in a desert.

Now, if you have a stadium that gets pounded over and over with activities other than football turf will hold up better during the year.

Mr_Tomahawk · 04-20-2023, 03:02 PM

As someone who designs stadiums and fields....synthetic turf isn't going anywhere.

The crumb rubber and all artificial infills will be gone in the next 10 years and replaced with organic infills. The European Union has banned them in new fields. That is the only thing that will be going away....

**notorious** · 04-20-2023, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Tomahawk

As someone who designs stadiums and fields....synthetic turf isn't going anywhere.

The crumb rubber and all artificial infills will be gone in the next 10 years and replaced with organic infills. The European Union has banned them in new fields. That is the only thing that will be going away....

Do you find my post above to be correct?

We figured on 40-50k/ year average for artificial turf (considering 10 years at 500k per cycle).

Mr_Tomahawk · 04-20-2023, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notorious

Do you find my post above to be correct?

We figured on 40-50k/ year average for artificial turf (considering 10 years at 500k per cycle).

Yes.

The reason why natural turf is no longer viable is because of the durability as you pointed out.

Stadiums these days are very seldom used just for one sports. The athletic surfaces get used daily...multiple times a day and natural turf cannot withstand this sort of use.

Heavy use of the natural turf field would result in compaction of the duff layer and subgrade making gmax and HIC values difficult to achieve on game day.

Mr_Tomahawk · 04-20-2023, 03:11 PM

Many injuries on synthetic turf fields are a result of the field crews adding too much infill resulting in a soft field. Soft fields lead to lower body injuries. This is what was happening 5 or so years ago in New England when like 5 players blew out their knees on one of their practice fields. It was later found their practice field had a shock pad AND crumb rubber which results in a spongy field.

As mentioned, the crumb rubber is being replace with organic infills which in turn require a shock pad to meet HIC requirements.

New England used both...because they didnt know what they were doing.

**wazu** · 04-20-2023, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Tomahawk

Yes.

The reason why natural turf is no longer viable is because of the durability as you pointed out.

Stadiums these days are very seldom used just for one sports. The athletic surfaces get used daily...multiple times a day and natural turf cannot withstand this sort of use.

Heavy use of the natural turf field would result in compaction of the duff layer and subgrade making gmax and HIC values difficult to achieve on game day.

Seems like the Chiefs do okay with it.

Megatron96 · 04-20-2023, 03:11 PM

Meh, just have two sets of grass. One just for NFL football, and the other for everything else. Problem solved. Turf sucks.

04-20-2023, 11:22 AM
wazu ... wazu's Avatar Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO	The NFLPA says injury rates are significantly higher on artificial turf than on grass A pretty bad look for the NFL. Glad Arrowhead has a grass field. Seems like a big key to our success this past half-decade has been good fortune on the injury front. I can't imagine a team making the conscious decision to opt for the "more injuries" approach. https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...grass-in-2022/ Spoiler! During the 2022 season, ESPN published data supplied by the NFL that purported to show that injury rates on grass and artificial turf were approximately the same. The NFL Players Association says that data was misleading, and that the NFL highlighted one outlier year’s worth of injury rates when the full body of research makes clear that players are injured more often on artificial turf. According to the NFLPA, the NFL selectively released injury data from 2021 only, and 2021 happened to be an unusual year because injury rates on artificial turf and grass were very similar that year — although even in 2021, players were slightly more likely to be injured on turf. But in every other season besides 2021, the NFLPA says, injury rates were significantly higher on turf. That includes the 2022 season, when injury rates on turf were as high as ever — and when the NFL didn’t make an effort to get those injury rates published by the media. NFLPA President J.C. Tretter wrote on the NFLPA’s website that the injury data from the 2022 season makes clear that 2021 was a statistical outlier, and that in every other season for which there is injury data to compare grass and turf, grass has proven significantly safer. “In short, last year, the gap – much like the NFL’s credibility with players on this issue – was as wide as it has ever been, proving that (as the NFLPA suspected) 2021 was in fact an outlier,” Tretter writes. “Now, 10 of the previous 11 years show the same exact thing — grass is a significantly safer surface than turf.” Tretter said the players can’t trust the NFL when it would selectively release misleading data on players’ health and safety. “The credibility the league has with the players on health and safety issues is virtually nonexistent,” Tretter writes. “Instead of following the long-term data (which is clear on this issue), listening to players and making the game safer, the NFL used an outlier year to engage in a PR campaign to convince everyone that the problem doesn’t actually exist.” The union would prefer that every NFL stadium have a grass field, but it making little progress in convincing the league to take the issue seriously. In fact, this year one more stadium will have a turf field, as the Titans have announced that they’re replacing their grass with an artificial surface.
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04-20-2023, 02:10 PM	#19
BWillie Future NBA Finals MVP BWillie's Avatar Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Earth	This is a slippery slope imo. Of course artificial turf is a little more injury prone. But what also causes probably even more injuries? A 17th game. Thursday Night football where players are able to get little rest. Playing games in subzero temps. Using existing helmets compared to more cumbersome ones they could opt to use.
Posts: 46,119	1 0

04-20-2023, 02:50 PM	#21
Iowanian Supporter Iowanian's Avatar Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Utopia	I don't enjoy watching turf games. I want to see grass and mudd in helmets and on jerseys. That said, they should go further and look at WHERE the most injuries are happening. Are there 2-3 stadiums where most of the knee injuries happen? Is it a certain style of turf or field turf? That's something that SHOULD be done and the league should require a change if it's the case.
Posts: 61,540

04-20-2023, 03:02 PM	#25
Mr_Tomahawk Prestige Worldwide Mr_Tomahawk's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Spring Hill, KS	As someone who designs stadiums and fields....synthetic turf isn't going anywhere. The crumb rubber and all artificial infills will be gone in the next 10 years and replaced with organic infills. The European Union has banned them in new fields. That is the only thing that will be going away....
Posts: 18,396	2 0

04-20-2023, 03:11 PM	#28
Mr_Tomahawk Prestige Worldwide Mr_Tomahawk's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Spring Hill, KS	Many injuries on synthetic turf fields are a result of the field crews adding too much infill resulting in a soft field. Soft fields lead to lower body injuries. This is what was happening 5 or so years ago in New England when like 5 players blew out their knees on one of their practice fields. It was later found their practice field had a shock pad AND crumb rubber which results in a spongy field. As mentioned, the crumb rubber is being replace with organic infills which in turn require a shock pad to meet HIC requirements. New England used both...because they didnt know what they were doing.
Posts: 18,396

04-20-2023, 03:11 PM	#30
Megatron96 Suupraa Geniuuusss Megatron96's Avatar Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Phoenix, AZ	Meh, just have two sets of grass. One just for NFL football, and the other for everything else. Problem solved. Turf sucks.
Posts: 29,909