Cap Space for 2020

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

Middlekauf had a good segment on his last podcast about paying players. I think I probably agree.

Anyway, he was basically saying he's willing to overpay a guy or pay a premium for him if he has an elite upside. Guys like Prescott that play really well in a system, you just can't do it because they don't have that elite talent upside. Paying Wentz you can stomach because "atleast he has elite upside and if he can hit that, you get your moneys worth"

So with Jones, he's got elite upside. He can be a top 2 or 3 interior defender in football. I would pay for that.

Generally speaking I agree - you pay for difference makers; guys with elite skill and ability.

But when you ALSO pay for guys like Okafor and Hitchens or gambles on tools like Watkins fail, then you're left trying to come up with a Plan B. And as far as Plan Bs go, Hargrave could be a hell of a fallback.

The problem is that Hargrave doesn't fit the talent here quite as well in that he's not a guy who's likely to be an asset bouncing out to DE like Jones can if Saunders/Nnadi continue to perform at a high level or excel.

[kccrow]

I'm of the opinion that this draft is strong enough at DT that if you can get a good return on a tag and trade of Jones you do that.

For example, Marvin Wilson would be a baller in this defense in my opinion. Don't know if he'll fall far enough for us to get him, but that's where he's projected right now.

[BryanBusby]

I think this class at IDL is awfully weak.

I like Kinlaw and Brown is stout, but shit it gets thin after they go.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by BryanBusby

I think this class at IDL is awfully weak.

I like Kinlaw and Brown is stout, but shit it gets thin after they go.

If Wilson and Lynch declare I don't think so. It's pretty stout in the top 10 DTs.

Davis is solid, then you have Wilson, Lynch, and an already declared Madubuike and Elliott. Murchison, Lawrence, Fotu, offer solid value solid in different ways. Coatney is a sleeper in my opinion.

[BryanBusby]

Originally Posted by kccrow

If Wilson and Lynch declare I don't think so. It's pretty stout in the top 10 DTs.

Davis is solid, then you have Wilson, Lynch, and an already declared Madubuike and Elliott. Murchison, Lawrence, Fotu, offer solid value solid in different ways. Coatney is a sleeper in my opinion.

Eh. I'm more on the I'll wait and see approach on some of these underclass guys.

Not too enamored with the Tier 2 pool this year.

[DJ's left nut]

Man, just take a look at the FA defensive tackle group....

Jones
Leonard Williams
Jarran Reed
A'Shanwn Robinson
DJ Reader
Jordan Phillips
Michael Pierce
Javon Hargrave
Michael Brockers
Suh
Tyler Davison
Quentin Jefferson
Danny SHelton
Maliek Collins
Nick Williams


Now granted there's a pretty big gap between Jones and someone like Williams, but the question becomes whether or not the depth of FA options holds some value down.

Then again, I think there was some thought that the deep safety group in last year's FA class would hold values down there and all it did was damage the middle-class in the lot. The top of the FA pool still got paid in a big way.

Jones is just awfully unique.

[RunKC]

We’ve gotten a lot of outstanding value from either rookies or cheap players that are on rookie contracts or contracts that are small in comparison to the larger picture (Okafor).

If the reports are true, I believe Veach’s plan would be to sign Jones and then continue finding cheaper talent to surround the team.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by RunKC

We’ve gotten a lot of outstanding value from either rookies or cheap players that are on rookie contracts or contracts that are small in comparison to the larger picture (Okafor).

If the reports are true, I believe Veach’s plan would be to sign Jones and then continue finding cheaper talent to surround the team.

Okafor has been nothing resembling an 'outstanding value'.

He was mediocre, then hurt, then finally looking good...then hurt again.

Any fair interpretation of the Okafor deal has to put it at middling at best for this season (and I think I'm being generous there). He has essentially a 2 year, $11 million deal and was...fine. Sometimes. Other times he was actually pretty damn bad (and I still contend he bore a large share of responsibility for our early season struggles against the run - he was trash there).

For the first 8 weeks of the season he was somewhere between 'invisible' and 'lousy' except for the game against the Broncos where EVERYONE got right.

Then he missed 4 games.

So through 12 weeks he'd been an actual asset one time and in a game where I'm pretty sure I could've picked up a QB pressure. Then he finally looked genuinely good in Wk 13 against the Patriots and could very well have maintained that momentum but he got hurt again and will now be lost for the post-season.

I mean c'mon - how's that an 'outstanding value'?

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Okafor has been nothing resembling an 'outstanding value'.

He was mediocre, then hurt, then finally looking good...then hurt again.

Any fair interpretation of the Okafor deal has to put it at middling at best for this season (and I think I'm being generous there). He has essentially a 2 year, $11 million deal and was...fine. Sometimes. Other times he was actually pretty damn bad (and I still contend he bore a large share of responsibility for our early season struggles against the run - he was trash there).

For the first 8 weeks of the season he was somewhere between 'invisible' and 'lousy' except for the game against the Broncos where EVERYONE got right.

Then he missed 4 games.

So through 12 weeks he'd been an actual asset one time and in a game where I'm pretty sure I could've picked up a QB pressure. Then he finally looked genuinely good in Wk 13 against the Patriots and could very well have maintained that momentum but he got hurt again and will now be lost for the post-season.

I mean c'mon - how's that an 'outstanding value'?

It’s an outstanding value bc of multiple reasons:

1. His cap hit is just south of $3 million. That is cheap. There are rookies that are paid more than him. It’s basically a 1st rd rookie contract, which in the grand scheme of things is a bargain.
To put that into perspective, he is the 25th highest paid player at his position this year.
2. He replaced Justin Houston at 15% of the price. He was on track to have a close to similar season to Houston last season. Less than $3 million compared to $20 million. That was the goal this offseason right? Am I missing something here?
3. Again. 5 sacks in 10 games for less than $3 million along with a decent run stuffing player who struggled a bit early in a new scheme but has turned it on the last month. That’s great value and exactly what we should be doing.

But man you need to get this mindset out of your head that players needs to be playing outstanding games every week. There’s context here.

Like Frank Clark, you throw the Ravens game out of the window. We’ll no shit he didn’t pile up stays and struggled a bit in the running game. You know how hard it is for any DE to sack Lamar Jackson or stop him in the open field running the ball? Go ahead and put your best DE out there and see how he does. There’s a reason Baltimore is good.

He’s had some struggles early no doubt. He also played a rookie QB in week 1 that they did not and could not prepare for. And Lamar Jackson. And he was out in Oakland.

I also don’t care about the “he destroyed Denver” argument. Your lovechild Khalil Mack got an All-pro award for destroying Denver for 5 sacks in 2015. He also embarrassed Donald Stephenson the week before for 2 sacks. So half his production came against scrubs.

Good players dominate scrubs and often pump stats that way. They are supposed to beat weak players.

[DJ's left nut]

You keep saying that I need players to be outstanding every week. I don't - even a little. I want them to not be a liability more weeks than they are, at least when we're talking about guys who are never supposed to be more than solid veterans. And you can't say that about Okafor. You say 'he had some early struggles' - well hell man, the guy missed the entire middle of the season and he'll miss the end. So apart from the 6 games he'll miss to injury and the 7 games worth of 'early struggles' - what exactly did he do 'round here?

I need them to not suck more often than they don't. Okafor was BAD man, he was just bad. And for all the 'YOU GUYS JUST WANT SACKS!!!!' crap I hear when we complain about a move, y'all sure are quick to cite them as dispositive.

I have NEVER claimed sacks are the only thing that matters. And if you're just gonna 'throw the Ravens game out the window' them I'm gonna just throw the Broncos game out the window and say that he had ONE decent week this year. I'm not sure why you get to 'throw out Baltimore' and then say "I don't care about Denver'. You wanna toss his worst game? Alright - you need to be willing to toss his best. If everyone sucks against Baltimore, well everyone's pretty damn good against Denver.

And don't bother trying argue cap hits when we're hemmed into his deal for 2 years - long-term planning matters. For year 1 of this deal, it was a bust. Was it a cheaper bust? Sure, but a bust it was. Trying to compare it to Houston's deal is folly as Houston's deal was KNOWN as ludicriously over market.

And if you want to just lean into 'he was the 25th highest paid player at his position this year' you're welcome to do so, but he was NOT the 25th most valuable DE in the league this year so I'm not sure how you've done your argument any favors.

Mike Pennel has been more important to this defense than Okafor. But a fair amount. Ogbah was far outplaying him and now that both of their seasons are over I think you can say that Ogbah provided more in his limited run than Okafor in his - and I don't see that as even drawing much of an argument.

Okafor was a disappointment. He DIDN'T 'beat weak players' apart from a single game. He was starting to look like a guy who could salvage the deal we signed him to because he WAS turning the corner, but then the guy got hurt. Again.

I don't know how you can say that he was a bargain when we got about a 1/2 season of play out of him and most of that was ineffective.

[RunKC]

I think at this point you try to keep your own guys in FA.

Pennel and Wiz should absolutely be here at their price point. Give them a bit of a raise and stay another year as critical veteran depth.

Aside from Pat and Jones, Ward has to be a priority. He’s more than earned an extension heading into a contract year. I think Veach has to try and get that done early.

Really aside from that, I would try to get Ogbah and Breeland back, however I don’t see them going for anything less than quality money as they’ve never been paid above a rookie scale before. They don’t seem like candidates to stay IMO.

Corner market is a buyers market this year. Lot of decent guys out there. Hoping Veach can get Chris Harris Jr on a discount for a year or two.

Not sure of the IOL market, but maybe there is a quality one out there at a low enough price to talk to. Maybe someone like Alex Mack, who if I were to guess would be a likely cut in Atlanta. If not, make it a priority in the draft.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by RunKC

I think at this point you try to keep your own guys in FA.

Pennel and Wiz should absolutely be here at their price point. Give them a bit of a raise and stay another year as critical veteran depth.

Aside from Pat and Jones, Ward has to be a priority. He’s more than earned an extension heading into a contract year. I think Veach has to try and get that done early.

Really aside from that, I would try to get Ogbah and Breeland back, however I don’t see them going for anything less than quality money as they’ve never been paid above a rookie scale before. They don’t seem like candidates to stay IMO.

Corner market is a buyers market this year. Lot of decent guys out there. Hoping Veach can get Chris Harris Jr on a discount for a year or two.

Not sure of the IOL market, but maybe there is a quality one out there at a low enough price to talk to. Maybe someone like Alex Mack, who if I were to guess would be a likely cut in Atlanta. If not, make it a priority in the draft.

I largely agree. I think we need to draft an IOL very early and also sign a solid vet.

In fact, I like that approach to every area of weakness as much as possible.

[pugsnotdrugs19]

I just hope Sammy can tear it up to close the year strong so we can flip him for a pick. ANY pick, I don’t care.

[RunKC]

Yip

Charvarius Ward needs a new deal.

— Nate Taylor (@ByNateTaylor) December 23, 2019