***Official 2023 STL Cardinals Thread ***

[BigRedChief]

2023 thread. Walker makes the roster. I'll update the rosters and opening day lineup when its official

2023 Opening Day Lineup

Spoiler!

Donovan 2B
Nootbar RF
Goldschmidt 1B
Arenado 3B
Wilson Contreras C
Tyler O'Neill LF
Gorman DH
Jordan Walker RF
Tommy Edman SS

2022 Opening Day roster.

Spoiler!

The Cardinals anticipated 26-player Opening Day roster projects as follows, but will not become official until Thursday, March 30:
PITCHERS (13): Jack Flaherty-RHP, Giovanny Gallegos-RHP, Ryan Helsley-RHP, Jordan Hicks-RHP, Steven Matz-LHP, Miles Mikolas-RHP, Jordan Montgomery-LHP, Packy Naughton-LHP, Andre Pallante-RHP, Chris Stratton-RHP, Zack Thompson-LHP, Drew VerHagen-RHP, and Jake Woodford-RHP;
CATCHERS (2): Willson Contreras and Andrew Knizner;
INFIELDERS (6): Nolan Arenado, Brendan Donovan, Tommy Edman, Paul Goldschmidt, Nolan Gorman and Taylor Motter;
OUTFIELDERS (5): Alec Burleson, Dylan Carlson, Lars Nootbaar, Tyler O’Neill and Jordan Walker;
INJURED LIST (3): Paul DeJong-INF, Wilking Rodríguez-RHP, Adam Wainwright-RHP.

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year, here are some of the historical threads going back to 2006.

Spoiler!

2022 thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...8#post16877588
2021 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=337124
2020 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=329273
2019 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239
2018 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
2012 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254619
etc.
All the way back to 2006 WS
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812

[Rams Fan]

There’s no world where Donovan should be traded before Edman.

And Edman should be traded eventually.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

There’s no world where Donovan should be traded before Edman.

And Edman should be traded eventually.

I'll always dream on the possibility of a Winn/Edman middle infield.

NOTHING will get up the middle with those 2. And with the shift banned, the range of those two guys would be a MASSIVE boost to our pitching staff. People keep pretending like our defense doesn't cost us a run or 2 every game and then act surprised when we lose so many 1 run ballgames.

But give me a world where we lock GGs at SS and 2b for the next 3 years and I guarantee you the pitching improves in front of it.

Edman's been done dirty by this franchise. That said, if you could trade him to a team that needs a SS and get a true CFer back in the deal, you go ahead and do that. And put Donovan at 2b and Gorman at DH.

[DJ's left nut]

So here's how you defend these deals - the Cardinals got 4 guys who I think should slot into the top 12 or so on their prospects lists.

1: Winn
2: Hence
3: Chase Davis
4: Graceffo
5: Kloffenstein
6: McGreevy
7: Roby
8: Hjerpe
9: Robberse
10: Victor Scott II
11: Saggese

We'll see where the updates put some of these guys but this does goose the top 10 pretty well.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'll always dream on the possibility of a Winn/Edman middle infield.

NOTHING will get up the middle with those 2. And with the shift banned, the range of those two guys would be a MASSIVE boost to our pitching staff. People keep pretending like our defense doesn't cost us a run or 2 every game and then act surprised when we lose so many 1 run ballgames.

But give me a world where we lock GGs at SS and 2b for the next 3 years and I guarantee you the pitching improves in front of it.

Edman's been done dirty by this franchise. That said, if you could trade him to a team that needs a SS and get a true CFer back in the deal, you go ahead and do that. And put Donovan at 2b and Gorman at DH.

Listen, I love Edman. Elsewhere on the internet I advocated last August that Edman, when healthy, would be worth playing middle IF due to his defense and not worth upgrading for Trea Turner and upgrading C was more worthwhile.

However, Donovan makes him redundant. While he’s not as good of a defender as Edman, he’s still like 80% of the defender Edman is and a substantially better hitter than Edman is while being younger.

I like Edman, but he shouldn’t be kept over Donovan, Gorman, or Winn.

The defense issues have also been more with the OF and Burleson and Walker having to play regularly in the OF.

Also, Arenado hasn’t been as good defensively this year.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Montgomery couldn't get a single top 10 prospect from a depleted Rangers system? The top prospect is a pitcher with a history of elbow and shoulder injuries that has gotten hits teeth kicked in at AA and another MI with a 25%+ K-rate?

Here's the scouting report on Saggesse:

All the metrics grade out nicely, including defense, though even Rangers’ personnel will acknowledge that at first gaze things may look “ordinary.” He just knows how to play the game. The one thing he could potentially improve: A little less chase. But he’s made it work for him. He hits. That’s what he does.

Because that's what the team needs.

****, just take the goddamned draft pick if that's all you're getting.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Montgomery couldn't get a single top 10 prospect from a depleted Rangers system? The top prospect is a pitcher with a history of elbow and shoulder injuries that has gotten hits teeth kicked in at AA and another MI with a 25%+ K-rate?

Here's the scouting report on Saggesse:

All the metrics grade out nicely, including defense, though even Rangers’ personnel will acknowledge that at first gaze things may look “ordinary.” He just knows how to play the game. The one thing he could potentially improve: A little less chase. But he’s made it work for him. He hits. That’s what he does.

Because that's what the team needs.

****, just take the goddamned draft pick if that's all you're getting.

Again - he profiles as Chris Taylor if everything breaks right. And there's never anything exciting about guys like that but they ARE valuable.

If you get Chris Taylor in this deal, it's a win.

But yeah, I wish they'd have focused more on 1 higher end prospect than getting 2 guys with pretty obvious glass ceilings. I mean the Dodgers are dying for pitching help - you really couldn't have leveraged Busch out of there and at least gotten a BETTER version of Sagesse for your efforts? They sure don't seem to have any use for him in LA...

['Hamas' Jenkins]

1

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Again - he profiles as Chris Taylor if everything breaks right. And there's never anything exciting about guys like that but they ARE valuable.

If you get Chris Taylor in this deal, it's a win.

But yeah, I wish they'd have focused more on 1 higher end prospect than getting 2 guys with pretty obvious glass ceilings. I mean the Dodgers are dying for pitching help - you really couldn't have leveraged Busch out of there and at least gotten a BETTER version of Sagesse for your efforts? They sure don't seem to have any use for him in LA...

I agree. They have Donovan, so another Taylor isn't a big need just yet, but that's probably an 85th percentile projection? It's just so on the nose that they'd acquire a guy who has nothing but 45 and 50 tools across the board.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

1

I agree. They have Donovan, so another Taylor isn't a big need just yet, but that's probably an 85th percentile projection? It's just so on the nose that they'd acquire a guy who has nothing but 45 and 50 tools across the board.

That's the problem with Mozeliak - it's ALWAYS been his problem.

Nothing is part of a coordinated plan/scheme.

Season starts, he gets his budget, he goes out and offers money and signs the first people that say yes. He doesn't build a team - he just spends his assets.

This trade deadline he decided he was willing to trade his pending UFAs so that's what he's going to do. In the process, he's made a move here that would allow him to move an Edman or Donovan to get that 'big league pitching with control' that he's been begging everyone else to just give him for buckets of shit. But that would demonstrate a coordinated plan; a move designed to set up a move.

He simply doesn't do that. He's a little kid in a candy shop and he has a bag of nickels. So he's going to take out one nickel - buy a thing. Take out another nickel - buy another thing. The idea of using those nickels in concert with each other is just completely foreign to him.

And that's why he's always a move (or two) short.

He's simply not a good strategic thinker. And he's an awful leader. He's a button pusher and that's it.

He's over his head and it's more apparent every day.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'm not sure i agree.

I mean Kloffenstein was a top 10 prospect for the Jays a year ago and a guy they broke the slot record for signing bonuses to get signed. They really liked him. And yes, he struggled in 2022 but has had a nice year in 2023.

He's a PLANET; built like an absolute tank. Works in the 94 mph range and can hit 97. Has 4 pitches including a slider that profiles as a big league pitch and a change that MIGHT become a plus pitch. He's only 22. I see no reason at all to write him off as a prospect even if the prospect hounds have. You set his profile and his performance this year side by side with McGreevy and there's no reason to pick McGreevy over him as likely to be a SP in the big leagues over the next 2 seasons.

And the prospect guys like Robberse but he just looks like a relief pitcher to me. He's an undersized 'pitchability' righty with no putaway pitch to speak of.

Of the two, I'd bank on Kloffenstein having a more impactful career, though I don't expect either of them to ever be more than maybe a #4 starter.

Kloffenstein is having a good year but this is his 2nd year in AA and 6th year a minor leaguer. Not sure how seriously he should be taken as a prospect at this point. Maybe he found something though.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Kloffenstein is having a good year but this is his 2nd year in AA and 6th year a minor leaguer. Not sure how seriously he should be taken as a prospect at this point. Maybe he found something though.

Have fun watching Hicks get 0-2 on every batter then let them back into the AB.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Again - he profiles as Chris Taylor if everything breaks right. And there's never anything exciting about guys like that but they ARE valuable.

If you get Chris Taylor in this deal, it's a win.

But yeah, I wish they'd have focused more on 1 higher end prospect than getting 2 guys with pretty obvious glass ceilings. I mean the Dodgers are dying for pitching help - you really couldn't have leveraged Busch out of there and at least gotten a BETTER version of Sagesse for your efforts? They sure don't seem to have any use for him in LA...

Mo is not touching his Faberge eggs. He’s only trading the 6 weeks left players. You are not getting #1 starters with 6 years of control for a 6 week rentals.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Kloffenstein is having a good year but this is his 2nd year in AA and 6th year a minor leaguer. Not sure how seriously he should be taken as a prospect at this point. Maybe he found something though.

He's 22.

His first year doesn't count ('18); that's his draft year. It's never fair to include a pitcher's draft year because they're almost always shut down after their HS/College season and you can't really ramp them back up.

'19 was him as an 18 yr old in short season ball where he dominated. By any reasonable analysis that's a successful season.

'20 was wiped out due to COVID.

'21 was ugly but lots of young kids came back and struggled in '21. '22 was undermined by injury.

He's had 3 'true' seasons in the minors. 1 of which was everything you could want from an 18 yr old. 1 of which was the odd post-covid season and 1 of which was broken up by injury.

I absolutely think this was a make or break year - sure. But by most anything I can figure, he 'made' it and has re-established himself as a prospect.

Again, the Cardinals have 3 similarly situated (non-Hence) pitchers in their top 5 prospects right now; all 3 of whom have been in/out of various top 100 lists. Graceffo and McGreevy are both a level higher than Kloffenstein but both are a year older as well. Hjerpe is the same age but only in A+.

If any of those guys are prospects (and undoubtedly all of them are) there's no good faith basis to conclude that Kloffenstein isn't. Again, this isn't some former 20th rounder. This is a guy taken in the 3rd who smashed the signing bonus record for his slot. The pedigree is there, the age is on his side, he's young for his level (still) and he's demonstrated progression and success this season to go with plenty of 'projectability' given his size and arsenal.

That's a legit prospect under any reasonable analysis. Prospect Twitter be damned.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Have fun watching Hicks get 0-2 on every batter then let them back into the AB.

I used to own Hicks in fantasy, I know his MO. He still strikes out more batters than anybody in their pen, they badly need the help with Romano down.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's 22.

His first year doesn't count ('18); that's his draft year. It's never fair to include a pitcher's draft year because they're almost always shut down after their HS/College season and you can't really ramp them back up.

'19 was him as an 18 yr old in short season ball where he dominated. By any reasonable analysis that's a successful season.

'20 was wiped out due to COVID.

'21 was ugly but lots of young kids came back and struggled in '21. '22 was undermined by injury.

He's had 3 'true' seasons in the minors. 1 of which was everything you could want from an 18 yr old. 1 of which was the odd post-covid season and 1 of which was broken up by injury.

I absolutely think this was a make or break year - sure. But by most anything I can figure, he 'made' it and has re-established himself as a prospect.

Again, the Cardinals have 3 similarly situated (non-Hence) pitchers in their top 5 prospects right now; all 3 of whom have been in/out of various top 100 lists. Graceffo and McGreevy are both a level higher than Kloffenstein but both are a year older as well. Hjerpe is the same age but only in A+.

If any of those guys are prospects (and undoubtedly all of them are) there's no good faith basis to conclude that Kloffenstein isn't. Again, this isn't some former 20th rounder. This is a guy taken in the 3rd who smashed the signing bonus record for his slot. The pedigree is there, the age is on his side, he's young for his level (still) and he's demonstrated progression and success this season to go with plenty of 'projectability' given his size and arsenal.

That's a legit prospect under any reasonable analysis. Prospect Twitter be damned.

I’m just not sure how much stock I’d put into his 2nd go around in AA, even at his age. We will find out soon enough what he is though.

[KC_Connection]

Genesis Cabrera has looked dominant so far for us btw. I’m waiting for the disaster outing to happen.