PBS Vietnam War Documentary

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish

Musgrave (Marine from Independence, MO) was pretty incredible in his interviews.

So was the Marine from Boston, Roger Harris.

Paraphrasing

"Don't believe what you read in the papers Mom. It's not going well. And I'm probably going to die"

"Thats not true. You're special".

"Mom, Every Mom thinks their boy is special. I'm putting a lot of body parts in bags of special boys".

JFC

Watching this really pisses me off. Our military and politicians KNEW in 1965 that the war was unwinnable. The USA already had 2,765 dead why didn't they cut their losses and move on from a war that was unwinnable?

Their mistake in lives:

The human costs of the long conflict were harsh for all involved. Not until 1995 did Vietnam release its official estimate of war dead: as many as 2 million civilians on both sides and some 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters.

The U.S. military has estimated that between 200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died in the war.

In 1982 the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated in Washington, D.C., inscribed with the names of 57,939 members of U.S. armed forces who had died or were missing as a result of the war. Over the following years, additions to the list have brought the total past 58,200. (At least 100 names on the memorial are those of servicemen who were actually Canadian citizens.)

Among other countries that fought for South Vietnam on a smaller scale, South Korea suffered more than 4,000 dead, Thailand about 350, Australia more than 500, and New Zealand some three dozen.

[stumppy]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Watching this really pisses me off. Our military and politicians KNEW in 1965 that the war was unwinnable. The USA already had 2,765 dead why didn't they cut their losses and move on from a war that was unwinnable?

Their mistake in lives:

The human costs of the long conflict were harsh for all involved. Not until 1995 did Vietnam release its official estimate of war dead: as many as 2 million civilians on both sides and some 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters.

The U.S. military has estimated that between 200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died in the war.

In 1982 the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated in Washington, D.C., inscribed with the names of 57,939 members of U.S. armed forces who had died or were missing as a result of the war. Over the following years, additions to the list have brought the total past 58,200. (At least 100 names on the memorial are those of servicemen who were actually Canadian citizens.)

Among other countries that fought for South Vietnam on a smaller scale, South Korea suffered more than 4,000 dead, Thailand about 350, Australia more than 500, and New Zealand some three dozen.

I'm right there with you. I don't think I've watched any other documentary that has caused so much anger in me. There's been a few times I've had to turn it off and watch it the next day.
What a horrible horrible waste of lives.

[gblowfish]

I've noticed a bunch of posts on Facebook of guys who were there in Vietnam, reliving their memories of time spent. I have a friend named George who lives here in KC. This is an excerpt from one of his Facebook posts:

After receiving my draft notice a few days after my 19th birthday, I met with an Army Recruiter who convinced me to take an extra year to become a medic. So, on October 21, 1966 I was inducted into the US Army at the building now used by the Kansas City Ballet, across the street from the main post office on Pershing Road. About 20 buses were parked on Pershing, ready to take us to Fort Leonard Wood.

After Basic training, I was sent to Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio for medical training, and then on to Fort Lee, Virginia where I worked at Kenner Army Hospital. I applied for a training program and was sent to Portsmouth Naval Hospital for 3 months where I learned about EKGs and Kidney Dialysis. Returning to Fort Lee, where there was no kidney dialysis, and after visiting the Renal Unit at Walter Reed, I applied for a transfer. Instead of going to Walter Reed, I received orders for Vietnam under the job description of “combat medic.”

While at Fort Lee in 1967-68 the hospital began receiving bus loads wounded soldiers, causing us to expand the old WWII hospital barracks to house them while they “recovered.” With orders for Vietnam I looked at these guys with the idea I could soon have a similar wound. I also attended a bullshit training program to teach me how the Vietnamese were not to be trusted and we should not feel empathy for their plight – the Army’s form of racism. I went to two sessions, and because I had the rank of Sp-5 I signed in to the classes and did not stay to hear the Army crap.

I arrived in Bien Hoa in late 1968 and was shipped to Cu Chi, home of the 25th Infantry, the area that experienced the major complex of Viet Cong tunnels, and where I went to work at the 24th Evac Hospital, a triage hospital for those wounded, the first stop before either being returned to duty or sent to 3rd Field Hospital or back to the US to facilities like the one at Ft. Lee. We worked 12-18 hour days, and sometimes around the clock.

I took the opportunity to accompany a few patients to 3rd Field Hospital, often making the transfer at the helipad, but once in a while escorting them to the triage area of the facility – holding an IV bottle or just helping a guy who was seriously wounded and fearful of every change. Once, while escorting into the facility I ran into my previous Company Commander at Ft. Lee, and had a brief discussion about our situations.

A few days later I found myself being transferred to 3rd Field Hospital to work in the newly constructed Renal Unit, where we treated the most seriously wounded patients coming to the hospital, because their wounds had caused their kidneys to shut down. In the remaining months of my tour, we treated over 400 guys in this condition. About 10 lived.

From a long lasting psychological standpoint, I’ve often thought I would have been better off staying at the Evac Hospital in Cu Chi. Regardless, I and the team in the Renal Unit did our best to ease these guys into their final days.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by stumppy

I'm right there with you. I don't think I've watched any other documentary that has caused so much anger in me. There's been a few times I've had to turn it off and watch it the next day.
What a horrible horrible waste of lives.

I was 6-7 years old when I watched protesters spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam. When I asked why, I couldn't understand why. The soldiers were drafted. They had to serve or go to jail. Why were the protesters blaming them? Seemed out of whack to me.

That started my life long commitment to help vets. Started going to the VFW at first to help out at events as much as a 6-7 year old can anyway.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I was 6-7 years old when I watched protesters spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam. When I asked why, I couldn't understand why. The soldiers were drafted. They had to serve or go to jail. Why were the protesters blaming them? Seemed out of whack to me.

That started my life long commitment to help vets. Started going to the VFW at first to help out at events as much as a 6-7 year old can anyway.

The protestors directing their actions toward the soldiers was hopelessly and incredibly WRONG.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The protestors directing their actions toward the soldiers was hopelessly and incredibly WRONG.

Ar least we learned that lesson. People separated the opposition to the Iraq war from the soldiers fighting the war. Overall the Iraq soldiers were treated like the heroes they were when they returned home.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Ar least we learned that lesson. People separated the opposition to the Iraq war from the soldiers fighting the war. Overall the Iraq soldiers were treated like the heroes they were when they returned home.

Yes. Reducing the number of civilian casualties also helped, as the perception of the American public wasn't that our boys were "baby-killers" and stuff like that.

I really like how many who defend the Vietnam War think we were too soft. That we just needed to have more troops over there, and bomb MORE, and ramp up our aggressiveness. So incredibly stupid it doesn't bear mentioning. Just look at the Russians in Afghanistan. It didn't work for them, and it wouldn't have worked for us, even if we were willing to become completely amoral.

"We had to destroy the village to save it."

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Watching this really pisses me off. Our military and politicians KNEW in 1965 that the war was unwinnable. The USA already had 2,765 dead why didn't they cut their losses and move on from a war that was unwinnable?

I can understand it the way one argument does: we made the Commies spend. They died at about 20-1 and we forced them to spend in a war we didn't "care" about.

Some argue it helped to end the cold war.

I would argue that assessment is correct.

I've also been witness to the results. My "uncle" who was honored and (today would be a MENSA member) blew his head off in his bedroom. His wife was forever ****ed and she later changed her and her kid's names.

My dad died of a "strange" form of brain cancer tied to agent orange.
The VA does not recognize this form of brain cancer as related to service. They agreed to treat him for free until it progressed and then told him "Sorry, we can't do anything. You're going to die."

When his doctors "across the street" found out about this they signed him up for everything they could and he was transferred from VA care to theirs.

I can't speak for anyone but it seems a lot of vets are going "across the street" and building a very solid case.

"We use to BBQ in the barrels. AO, spread, fuel, we'd take them, wash them out, and use them to cook out of..."

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Rausch

I can understand it the way one argument does: we made the Commies spend. They died at about 20-1 and we forced them to spend in a war we didn't "care" about.

I can blow up each and every one of these, easily.

"They" died at 20-1? Great. But "they" were nearly all peasant farmers in Vietnam. They weren't our enemy, and were never going to be our enemy, until we forced them to be our enemy. This isn't like WWII or even the war on terrorism, where arguably these nutjobs would go somewhere and attack "the west" in some fashion if they could. These people would mostly have worked their damn rice paddies if it wasn't for us forcing them to be soldiers.

Some argue it helped to end the cold war.

I would argue that assessment is correct.

Yeah, no. The fall of the Soviet Union was not caused to any signifciant degree by Vietnam. I have never seen any argument that suggests anywhere near that type of causation/correlation.

I've also been witness to the results. My "uncle" who was honored and (today would be a MENSA member) blew his head off in his bedroom. His wife was forever ****ed and she later changed her and her kid's names.

My dad died of a "strange" form of brain cancer tied to agent orange.
The VA does not recognize this form of brain cancer as related to service. They agreed to treat him for free until it progressed and then told him "Sorry, we can't do anything. You're going to die."

I'm very sorry for the price your family paid. I'm also sorry that I don't think they paid that awful price for anything of significant value to our country. It's not remotely their fault that a combination of bad luck, bad leadership, paranoia and stupidity caused untold suffering here and abroad.

[gblowfish]

Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish

Musgrave (Marine from Independence, MO) was pretty incredible in his interviews.

Musgrave is from my immediate neighborhood, where I grew up and still live. But there is no "Fairmount, Missouri." Fairmount is just the name of a general neighborhood. The center is roughly US 24 Highway and Huttig St. in Northwest Independence. Other neighborhoods in Western Independence are Englewood, Maywood, Mount Washington, and to the extreme west side Blue Summit (which we called Dogpatch). When I was a kid, I went to the Fairmount Christian Church. There was a Fairmount Grade School, Fairmount Park. But it's not an incorporated town, it's all Independence.

Musgrave was inducted into the Van Horn High School Hall of Honor this year. There's been many distinguished folks who have graduated from Van Horn. And the school is on a major resurgence now that it's in the Independence School District. Major construction going on now to expand it.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish

Musgrave (Marine from Independence, MO) was pretty incredible in his interviews.

So was the Marine from Boston, Roger Harris.

Paraphrasing

"Don't believe what you read in the papers Mom. It's not going well. And I'm probably going to die"

"Thats not true. You're special".

"Mom, Every Mom thinks their boy is special. I'm putting a lot of body parts in bags of special boys".

JFC

Musgraves story of survival was simply unreal, 5 or so different medics and surgeons looking him right in the face and basically saying 'not wasting my time, you're a dead man'

What a feeling that must've been for him

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Easy 6

Musgraves story of survival was simply unreal, 5 or so different medics and surgeons looking him right in the face and basically saying 'not wasting my time, you're a dead man"

What a feeling that must've been for him

The first years of he war, The vast majority of men and women who fought in Vietnam were Honorable and truly thought they were serving to protect their country from a clear and present danger. After 1965-66 most started to question WTF we are doing there. As we find out later, they should have been, their leaders knew the war was unwinnable at that point.

Another new thing that upsets me is the racism the military put into the heads of these 18 year olds. As Musgrave said, paraphrasing, racism is essential to keep them killing in Vietnam. I know they are not doing that now, but it still is upsetting that we chose to do that to our 18 year old soldiers during that era.