PBS Vietnam War Documentary

[ptlyon]

Originally Posted by Easy 6

Last nights episode convinced me that, as crazy as all of the current protesting and mayhem these days seems... its but a drop in the bucket compared to that era

Unfortunately I believe we are working that way

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Easy 6

Last nights episode convinced me that, as crazy as all of the current protesting and mayhem these days seems... its but a drop in the bucket compared to that era

Things were well and truly out of control back then, like the idiots in Greenwich Village who made a bomb powerful enough to level a large brick apartment building

Yeah, just like that era, there is a lot of tribalism going on in 2017 politics. Large numbers of people protesting, Clashes in the streets between each other and the police.

But, I just dont see it getting as bad as it was back then. We are in a war but most support and recognize the need. The National Guard is not going to shoot unarmed protesters. There is no widespread appeal for building bombs and or use violence against the "other side".

[AssEaterChief]

Great series, I'm on episode 9 now.

One of the greatest takeaways for me personally (besides the atrocity of the war itself and the powerful personal narratives) was the total selfishness of all 3 Presidents during this time period.

You hear Kennedy, LBJ, and Nixon all admit they won't have good chances (or chances at all) at reelection if they pull out.

Kennedy was just such a ****ing hypocrite ("ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country")

annnnnd is worried about his reelection chances over American lives….what a ****ing asshole.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by AssEaterChief

Great series, I'm on episode 9 now.

One of the greatest takeaways for me personally (besides the atrocity of the war itself and the powerful personal narratives) was the total selfishness of all 3 Presidents during this time period.

You hear Kennedy, LBJ, and Nixon all admit they won't have good chances (or chances at all) at reelection if they pull out.

Kennedy was just such a ****ing hypocrite ("ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country")

annnnnd is worried about his reelection chances over American lives….what a ****ing asshole.

Wait, you're focused on KENNEDY?!? Are you f'ing serious? You do know when he was shot, right?

[AssEaterChief]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Wait, you're focused on KENNEDY?!? Are you f'ing serious? You do know when he was shot, right?

He still had an opportunity to end it before that massive troop build up. He chose to keep "advisors" in country and his dream of a second presidency alive instead.

All three Presidents had their hands in the American presence there.

I guess the Kennedy thing just caught me off guard because I had always heard that had he not been assassinated, he would have likely pulled us out of Vietnam.

This just debunks that in my mind.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by AssEaterChief

He still had an opportunity to end it before that massive troop build up. He chose to keep "advisors" in country and his dream of a second presidency alive instead.

All three Presidents had their hands in the American presence there.

I guess the Kennedy thing just caught me off guard because I had always heard that had he not been assassinated, he would have likely pulled us out of Vietnam.

This just debunks that in my mind.

I have mostly heard this in connection with conspiracy theorists who suggest that the CIA was behind Kennedy's assassination. I have never seen/heard any real evidence that Kennedy would have pulled us out. Given his stance on Communism in general, and his general hard-line attitude (see Missile Crisis, Cuba), I'm very skeptical.

BUT that does not necessarily mean he would have escalated it just like Johnson. Maybe he would have, but we'll never know.

[Great Expectations]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Wait, you're focused on KENNEDY?!? Are you f'ing serious? You do know when he was shot, right?

How many troops did we have there before JFK? How many when he died?


Also neither Vietnam or Reagan's "tear down that wall" speech did much to tear down the USSR. Oil and the economy did them in; Gingrich did his best to extend their reign, but luckily G Bush saw thru him, took at trip to Eastern Europe and ultimately believed the CIA over Newt and continued to ease military spending. If he didn't Gorbachev would've likely been overthrown by their military.

[Easy 6]

About Face by Col David Hackworth really cant be beat, he covers both the Korean War and Vietnam... the man has some absolutely amazing personal stories

The way he describes the human waves in Korea will send chills down your spine

[siberian khatru]

Originally Posted by Easy 6

About Face by Col David Hackworth really cant be beat, he covers both the Korean War and Vietnam... the man has some absolutely amazing personal stories

The way he describes the human waves in Korea will send chills down your spine

I concur

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Great Expectations

How many troops did we have there before JFK? How many when he died?

Kennedy's hands are not clean but the cluster**** that was to come was not his doing. Johnson was the one who escalated the conflict several times. Nixon as a candidate committed treason and sabotaged a chance at peace.

And remember what Kennedy was dealing with at the time, the military, all of the military in the oval office is advocating a first strike with nuclear weapons. Thats the solution to the Cuban missile crisis. It's on tape. Millions of Americans will die and render parts of the USA uninhabitable for generations but at least we would be rid of communism once and for all. Man how close we came....

[Rain Man]

Maybe I'm too old school, and I've only seen three episodes so far, but the documentary seems to be very focused on Vietnam as a massive cluster****. Maybe it was; I'm not denying that. But I kind of feel like there's another side of the story, even if it turned out to be on the wrong side of history. There had to be some rational people who thought, "XXX seemed like a good idea at the time because of YYY. Obviously, we were wrong, but here's our thinking."

It's coming across a little bit like the drafting of Joe Montana. In hindsight, every scout and GM in the league wanted to draft Joe Montana and pushed for it. I'm hearing that everyone in America knew the problems in Vietnam and wanted to end it. I don't think that was the case.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Maybe I'm too old school, and I've only seen three episodes so far, but the documentary seems to be very focused on Vietnam as a massive cluster****. Maybe it was; I'm not denying that. But I kind of feel like there's another side of the story, even if it turned out to be on the wrong side of history. There had to be some rational people who thought, "XXX seemed like a good idea at the time because of YYY. Obviously, we were wrong, but here's our thinking."

It's coming across a little bit like the drafting of Joe Montana. In hindsight, every scout and GM in the league wanted to draft Joe Montana and pushed for it. I'm hearing that everyone in America knew the problems in Vietnam and wanted to end it. I don't think that was the case.

I think the best explanation for the "other side" is literally inertia, or gravitational pull, or whatever you want to call it.

1. Communism is bad

2. We must prevent the spread of Communism / domino theory

3. We're the f'ing United States, and this is some piss-ant, third world country.

From there it was nothing more than egos, political calculations, and an unshakable belief that we could not lose.

You also need to understand that when China went Communist, and that was only 15 - 20 years earlier -- there was MASSIVE fallout across government. Hearings were held where CongressShits literally questioned whether George C. Marshall -- one of the greatest Americans ever -- was a traitor for "losing China." The State Department was under fire for years for being perceived as "full of Commie sympathizers".

Add to that the House UnAmerican Activities Committee, McCarthyism and the general insanity that pervaded government when it came to Communism and you have really removed the foundations for RATIONAL decision-making when it comes to whether or not to "stand against Communism." In that atmosphere, bureaucrats, like any rational human being, will err on the side of self-preservation.

It's all so goddamn tragic.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I think the best explanation for the "other side" is literally inertia, or gravitational pull, or whatever you want to call it.

1. Communism is bad

2. We must prevent the spread of Communism / domino theory

3. We're the f'ing United States, and this is some piss-ant, third world country.

From there it was nothing more than egos, political calculations, and an unshakable belief that we could not lose.

You also need to understand that when China went Communist, and that was only 15 - 20 years earlier -- there was MASSIVE fallout across government. Hearings were held where CongressShits literally questioned whether George C. Marshall -- one of the greatest Americans ever -- was a traitor for "losing China." The State Department was under fire for years for being perceived as "full of Commie sympathizers".

Add to that the House UnAmerican Activities Committee, McCarthyism and the general insanity that pervaded government when it came to Communism and you have really removed the foundations for RATIONAL decision-making when it comes to whether or not to "stand against Communism." In that atmosphere, bureaucrats, like any rational human being, will err on the side of self-preservation.

It's all so goddamn tragic.

I went to bible camp for a week in 1972 in the Arkansas wilderness. It was a beautiful place. Caves, streams, mountains. Nice barracks for us to sleep. Thats where the idyllic envitnment stopped.

Males and females were not allowed to touch each other, not even accidentally. You lost privileges if it happened. I grew up poor and it was free. So this was my families only option.

I remember watching a movie about communism in a beautiful cave. Way over the top propaganda. They showed us some images from war, atrocities commuted by commies. Really bad images kids shouldn't be seeing. Mulitple dead bodies, tortured people, people being shot etc. Facts and figures that showed obviously that communism is the worst thing to ever happened to humanity. After the film some guy who escaped Russia told us more about the horrors he had suffered and witnessed under the commies.

[Easy 6]

Best part of tonights episode by far, has been the story of the Wall Memorial, and the vets returning to Vietnam to set things right in their own minds, and get to know their former enemies

Extremely moving, and hopeful... my allergies are flaring up again