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06-07-2018, 09:26 AM | #1426 |
Rabbi Goldmann
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Your analogy doesn't apply here DJ. Child molestation isn't a 60/40 proposition you need to calculate a probability of winning on. ROI, etc.
It's 100% either/or. You did it or you didn't. And if you didn't you go full-bore into court and plead innocence. And do so until you die, outcome independent. Nobody will EVER accuse me of that crap. |
Posts: 87,025
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06-07-2018, 09:36 AM | #1427 | |
Sauntering Vaguely Downwards
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbia, Mo
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Quote:
It isn't a 'ROI' analysis in question here but rather a risk/reward one. I can't speak to what the actual possibilities were here - I have no idea what the law in his state was at the time (was it Washington?). But let's say he has a 25% chance of being convicted and spending the rest of his HS days in a juvenile detention center before being released into society without a HS degree and one hell of a problem on his resume to explain. Or he takes the plea, keeps moving forward with his life and 5 years later the records are sealed. An attorney would be committing malpractice to simply not discuss that sequence of events with him and insist he consider the potentially catostrophic downside of digging his heels in. The lawyer doesn't ultimately make the call, but there's no way he should have gone into a room with him and that family and said what you're saying "Screw even thinking about the offer man - if you didn't do it, fight it". A lot of people will naturally come to that conclusion on their own, no doubt. I'd suggest a majority would. But some absolutely wouldn't. What Heimlich did was almost certainly the path of least resistance and presented by far and away the least amount of risk. There's an argument, even if a fairly tenuous one, in favor of exactly what he claims he did and it happens in offices and courtrooms around the country daily. Because in the end, you know 100% whether you did or didn't do it, but the finder of fact doesn't. And even if you know you didn't do it, you can never be 100% certain that the folks that are about to decide whether your life is effectively obliterated are going to comet o that same conclusion. |
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Posts: 62,880
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06-07-2018, 09:42 AM | #1428 |
Rabbi Goldmann
Join Date: Nov 2012
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You did mention criminality.
But even there, diff levels of crime. Someone accuses me of theft, I'd plea down to avoid a felony, pay the fine, and move on. But some, I'll fight to the death. Child molestation is one. |
Posts: 87,025
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06-07-2018, 09:47 AM | #1429 |
Sauntering Vaguely Downwards
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbia, Mo
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Genuinely curious how folks would view a less 'icky' but more tragic fact pattern.
A lot of us drank in High School, right? Many of us more than we should have. And at 15 yrs old many of us had access to a car for permit driving, etc... So if the parents are out of town, our buddies come over and we get lit on Boone's farm. Then I get in the car for a fast food run, blow a light and kill a little girl in a car accident. Your distinctions are pretty clear here - one was technically an accident, but legally there are a lot of 'voluntary' acts that went into it. You're almost certainly still going to be subject to a juvenile system because again - as a society we recognize that at that age you just don't have the cognitive development to make as fully formed of a decision as you'll make as an adult; basic human physiology at work there. But you've also killed someone. I think most people would be more inclined to call that a 'tragic accident' and allow the kid another shot under that fact pattern. Not all, maybe not most. But I don't think the guy goes undrafted in that situation. And while the key distinction is that the molestation required an overt, intentional act at the time it was done - the drunk driving did as well. And in both circumstances we subject a person to juvenile penalties because we recognize that the judgment that went into both of those decisions was from a person who simply isn't mature enough to exercise adult decision-making. And I'll admit my own hypocrisy here in that I've not really been impacted by either kinds of situations in my life and I'd be more inclined to get behind the car accident kid in the Cardinals organization myself. But I do think I'm engaging in some logical inconsistency there. |
Posts: 62,880
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06-07-2018, 09:50 AM | #1430 | |
Sauntering Vaguely Downwards
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbia, Mo
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But I think it's naive to say everyone would. That's simply not the case. If you'll acknowledge that you have your own gradient as to when/where you'd consider taking a rap for something you didn't do because the risk/reward worked out that way, then surely you have to also acknowledge that not everyone has the same rubric you do. |
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Posts: 62,880
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06-07-2018, 09:56 AM | #1431 |
Stay positive, don't give up
Join Date: Dec 2001
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I think he should be able to work and move forward but not in MLB not being a role model or potential to be around kids for sure. Personally hope no team signs him. Jmo
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Posts: 46,240
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06-07-2018, 09:56 AM | #1432 | |
"You like to drink?"
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: "I like to drink."
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Quote:
1) You were drunk. 2) You drive a vehicle that matches a witness' description of one which was driving erratically and caused another driver to fatally crash in a place not watched by cameras. 3) You were apprehended in the vicinity of the crash though not currently driving the vehicle, the vehicle showed signs of being in operation recently, had a BAC which suggests you were drunk at the time of the crash of the other car as well as being defined as an impaired driver at the time of the crash. ? |
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Posts: 44,073
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06-07-2018, 10:03 AM | #1433 | |
Sauntering Vaguely Downwards
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbia, Mo
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Quote:
And if he did, would you view the drunk driving situation in a different light as the molestation one? I think virtually all would and most would be lighter on the drunk driver despite his more dire consequences. I think I probably would be. And I'm not entirely certain I'd be justified in doing so. |
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Posts: 62,880
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06-07-2018, 10:37 AM | #1434 | |
In Search of a Life
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Kansas
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To be clear, I'm certainly not saying driving intoxicated is anywhere close to okay. If a drunk driver killed one of my kids, somebody would certainly go to prison for years and I assure you, it wouldn't be the driver. I'm just saying, sometimes intent does matter. |
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06-07-2018, 02:31 PM | #1435 | |
In Search of a Life
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Posts: 36,053
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06-07-2018, 02:52 PM | #1436 | |
I’m a Mahomo!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-Missouri
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I just remember how dead set you were on not drafting Hill. I believe in 2nd chances because everyone makes mistakes here & there. I’m willing to give everyone another chance even though some aren’t able to change their ways. |
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Posts: 54,038
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06-07-2018, 03:00 PM | #1437 |
Mahomes or GTFO
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: KC
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Since this is now a drunk thread...
Andy is HAMMERED... |
Posts: 13,232
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06-07-2018, 05:48 PM | #1438 |
In Search of a Life
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Antonio Tx.
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Should the Royals take a chance and sign Luke Heimlich?
Worth the backlash? Worked for the Chiefs with Tyreek. Fans will forgive if the results show up on the field. Or was the crime too heinous? |
Posts: 66,914
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06-07-2018, 05:55 PM | #1439 |
MVP
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NYC
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Posts: 7,964
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06-07-2018, 05:58 PM | #1440 | |
In Search of a Life
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: L.A.
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Quote:
I can cheer for a guy who lost his temper in the heat of the moment, hasn't repeated his mistake, and shows real remorse and contrition. You don't molest a child in the heat of the moment. Same reason the Chiefs don't play that Gary Glitter song anymore. |
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