Official 2017 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

My as well get it started. Here's my "Matheny" lineup.....

Fowler CF
Diaz SS
Carpenter 1B
Piscotty RF
Grichuk LF
Molina C
Peralta 3B
Wong 2B
Pitcher

My "Matheny" Starting rotation

Martinez
Reyes
Wainwright
Lynn
Leake

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

God I hope not.

Because Matheny isn't clever enough to come up with an alternative if Alcantara actually succeeds. 5 years later he'll still be in the 9th throwing one pitch while everything he's learned has atrophied.

He'll go from a potential ace starter with a 3-4 pitch arsenal to a volatile back-end option who will need surgery in 4 years after Matheny wrecks him.

Rosenthal is a model of what NOT to do to an elite starting pitcher prospect. 98 mph fastball with life, arguably the best curveball in the organization and a developing changeup. We stick him in the bullpen, forget all about the fact that he wrecked shit as a starter and has the frame to carry 200 innings, let his secondary pitches atrophy in short bursts of work and then end up non-tendering him.

That kid could've been Syndergaard and we absolutely ruined him.

If they're going to put starting pitchers in the bullpen, at least let them fail as starters first. In other words, toss Wacha out there or even Wainwright. Do not bury kids with top of the rotation ceilings in the bullpen because they'll become Matheny's pet until he kills them.

He's ****ing Lennie and relief pitchers are his bunnies. "I shall love him and squeeze him and call him George..." and then the ****ing reeruned window licker squishes them to death. Again.

The organization's response? Nah, let's not replace him with someone that doesn't crush their little skulls...lets just get him more ****ing rabbits.

God this team is stupid.

I agree. Meathead must keep 8 pitchers in the bullpen but insists on using the same 3. This has been going on since he got the job. No improvement whatsoever in bullpen use. Burn em out and move on.

What's your opinion on Flaherty? I think he's a star waiting to happen.

[kcpasco]

Matheny didn't challenge a sure out at 3rd. Video replay showed clear proof and he said nope.

[kcpasco]

How that top of the 4th ended sums up the 2017 Cardinals.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I agree. Meathead must keep 8 pitchers in the bullpen but insists on using the same 3. This has been going on since he got the job. No improvement whatsoever in bullpen use. Burn em out and move on.

What's your opinion on Flaherty? I think he's a star waiting to happen.

Flaherty has been my favorite non-Reyes prospect in the system since he was drafted. When he stalled a bit last year I was worried he was going to go the route of my previous draft crush - Tyrell Jenkins. I've definitely felt some delayed vindication this year as he's exploded through the system.

That said, I don't see a star there. I see a #2 pitcher with full command of 4 pitches, 2 of which would qualify as plus offerings at their peak (fastball and slider). But I don't see the plus plus pitch he'd need to be a true star.

It took me a bit to think of a comp but I think I've nailed it: Jacob Degrom. Degrom has a good fastball but not one I would consider elite. He has 3 offspeed pitches that are all decent and on any given night one might be better than that, but none of them are stellar. Instead he's a smart pitcher with good command, a great feel for the game and a very deep, solid pitch mix.

Degrom is not a star but he's a very good pitcher. Top 10% outcome for Flaherty is something very similar to what Degrom has developed into.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Flaherty has been my favorite non-Reyes product in the system since he was drafted. When he stalled a bit last year I was worried he was going to go the route of my previous draft crush - Tyrell Jenkins. I've definitely felt some delayed vindication this year as he's exploded through the system.

That said, I don't see a star there. I see a #2 pitcher with full command of 4 pitches, 2 of which would qualify as plus offerings at their peak (fastball and slider). But I don't see the plus plus pitch he'd need to be a true star.

It took me a bit to think of a comp but I think I've nailed it: Jacob Degrom. Degrom has a good fastball but not one I would consider elite. He has 3 offspeed pitches that are all decent and on any given night one might be better than that, but none of them are stellar. Instead he's a smart pitcher with good command, a great feel for the game and a very deep, solid pitch mix.

Degrom is not a star but he's a very good pitcher. Top 10% outcome for Flaherty is something very similar to what Degrom has developed into.

good info. Do you think a playoff rotation of Martinez/Reyes/Flaherty is good enough to compete in 2019?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

good info. Do you think a playoff rotation of Martinez/Reyes/Flaherty is good enough to compete in 2019?

Impossible to say until we see Reyes come back. They need to change his delivery so he stops dragging his arm and shoulder loading. That will cost him a couple of ticks of velocity but will greatly prolong his career (and help his breaking stuff; potentially even his command). We can't know what kind of pitcher he'll be until he works with his new stuff.

Martinez isn't a post-season ace, though. I don't see Flaherty quite at that tier either. Of Reyes cam become a genuine hammer, Martinez and Flaherty is better than most at 2/3. But the rest of the team isn't approaching playoff caliber so why worry?

This teams everyday 8 will be worse in 2 years than it is right now. I don't see any utility in worrying about an October rotation.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Impossible to say until we see Reyes come back. They need to change his delivery so he stops dragging his arm and shoulder loading. That will cost him a couple of ticks of velocity but will greatly prolong his career (and help his breaking stuff; potentially even his command). We can't know what kind of pitcher he'll be until he works with his new stuff.

Martinez isn't a post-season ace, though. I don't see Flaherty quite at that tier either. Of Reyes cam become a genuine hammer, Martinez and Flaherty is better than most at 2/3. But the rest of the team isn't approaching playoff caliber so why worry?

This teams everyday 8 will be worse in 2 years than it is right now. I don't see any utility in worrying about an October rotation.

Most players come back from Tommy John close to what they were in 2 years. I see you point about putting undue stress on Reyes arm. Would this be a good time to refine his motion? While coming back?

I wasn't seeing any of them as a playoff "ace" like Baumgardner was But, as a group comparing them to what other teams top 3 would throw at us, is our top 3 good enough to match up to give us a chance to win from the pitching side of the game. I think they are. Why am I wrong?

We have a little over a year and two off seasons to get our offense playoff ready. We do have some talent in the minors but the only way I see us having a playoff ready offense is Dewitt opens the wallet and spends some of that new TV money and we get a real MOTOB.

[kcpasco]

Lynn with under 100 pitches thru 8 allowing only 1 hit and Matheny pulls him. He gives the ball to Lyons for the 9th which is the best decision next to just letting Lynn finish the game. Lyons gives up 1 damn hit and the idiot replaces him. Matheny needs to go bye bye.

[kcpasco]

Wow just wow. I might not watch this team again with that idiot as a manager. **** that guy and **** upper management for being ok with it.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by kcpasco

Lynn with under 100 pitches thru 8 allowing only 1 hit and Matheny pulls him. He gives the ball to Lyons for the 9th which is the best decision next to just letting Lynn finish the game. Lyons gives up 1 damn hit and the idiot replaces him. Matheny needs to go bye bye.

that was so typical of that dumbass.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That game was not on Matheny tactically, but logistically.

Tactically, he made the right decisions with the guys he had. Lynn made it through 8, but he was near 100 pitches, it was 100 degrees, and he was facing the top of the lineup. Lyons induced weak contact to Pence, but because the Giants will always ****ing own the Cardinals with the most random bullshit luck, Lyons flinched and didn't stick his glove out for the grounder, which because Giants, just snuck through the infield.

And while you could argue that Matheny should have walked Posey and left Lyons in to face Crawford and Sandoval, Oh did induce weak contact, but because ****ing Giants, Posey threw his bat at a pitch that totally fooled him, and a flare dropped in to score the tying run.

Of course, we would have had far better options in the 9th had Matheny not ground Rosenthal and Siegrist into mill from 2013 to the present. That's the logistical failure.

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

That game was not on Matheny tactically, but logistically.

Tactically, he made the right decisions with the guys he had. Lynn made it through 8, but he was near 100 pitches, it was 100 degrees, and he was facing the top of the lineup. Lyons induced weak contact to Pence, but because the Giants will always ****ing own the Cardinals with the most random bullshit luck, Lyons flinched and didn't stick his glove out for the grounder, which because Giants, just snuck through the infield.

And while you could argue that Matheny should have walked Posey and left Lyons in to face Crawford and Sandoval, Oh did induce weak contact, but because ****ing Giants, Posey threw his bat at a pitch that totally fooled him, and a flare dropped in to score the tying run.

Of course, we would have had far better options in the 9th had Matheny not ground Rosenthal and Siegrist into mill from 2013 to the present. That's the logistical failure.

Apparently Lynn had a blister open up on him that kept him from the 9th. MM is still a dumbass, but as you detailed this one is less his fault. Failing to get a run in from third with nobody out usually comes back to bite you.

Just an aside, I catch a good portion of their games but somehow missed Carpenter getting thrown out from third on a single to center. That pretty much sums up this season to date.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by VAChief

Apparently Lynn had a blister open up on him that kept him from the 9th. MM is still a dumbass, but as you detailed this one is less his fault. Failing to get a run in from third with nobody out usually comes back to bite you

yeah, Matheny gets a pass on pulling Lynn this time. He still is extremely guilty of piss poor bullpen management that is so horrible that it warrants firing.

Originally Posted by VAChief

Just an aside, I catch a good portion of their games but somehow missed Carpenter getting thrown out from third on a single to center. That pretty much sums up this season to date.

I was watching that game. The coach is telling him to go home. Pointing to home. He goes a couple of steps down the line. Then hesitates and stands there. Then goes back to tag up. He leaves the base late. Horrible slide. Good throw.

There was no outs. It was obvious the ball was going to drop. Didn't listen to the coach standing right next to him. It was one of the worst base running **** ups this year. And that's saying a lot .

[DJ's left nut]

John Mozeliak doesn't just **** up wet dreams (like Stanton), he even ****s up those lukewarm dreams where you make out with your college roommates mom and wake up with half a chub.

The Cardinals just gave up a top 20 prospect for Juan Nicasio. Who was picked up on waivers for nothing a week ago and who is not going to be post-season eligible. He is also a pending free agent.

So they traded for a solid relief pitcher for 3 weeks. And gave up Eliezer Alvarez for the trouble, who is a probably a utility guy at his best but is not without value.

The guy can't even manage to make mediocre deals worth a shit.

What the **** is going on in the Cardinals front office these days? They need to broom the whole sorry lot of them as they are clearly out of ideas.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

John Mozeliak doesn't just **** up wet dreams (like Stanton), he even ****s up those lukewarm dreams where you make out with your college roommates mom and wake up with half a chub.

The Cardinals just gave up a top 20 prospect for Juan Nicasio. Who was picked up on waivers for nothing a week ago and who is not going to be post-season eligible. He is also a pending free agent.

So they traded for a solid relief pitcher for 3 weeks. And gave up Eliezer Alvarez for the trouble, who is a probably a utility guy at his best but is not without value.

The guy can't even manage to make mediocre deals worth a shit.

What the **** is going on in the Cardinals front office these days? They need to broom the whole sorry lot of them as they are clearly out of ideas.

philly picked in front of them on the waiver wire. Alvarez has been injured so maybe the Cardinals think he never going to be anything. We need to start moving that minor league talent. It's logjamming. Alvarez was low hanging fruit.

How many times have we bitched about trading a prospect and not getting value back? None have come back to bite us in the ass. Teams know things we don't. Family and girlfriend issues. Alcoholic. Lack of effort. Got lazy. Can't learn and retain. Won't change something they need to change etc. the list of stuff we never hear is long.

Maybe there is locker room issues when they are 3 games back and doing nothing?

Now that doesn't resolve Mo of his shit trades but whether its luck or not, the traded talent usually don't bite us in the ass.