Official 2017 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

My as well get it started. Here's my "Matheny" lineup.....

Fowler CF
Diaz SS
Carpenter 1B
Piscotty RF
Grichuk LF
Molina C
Peralta 3B
Wong 2B
Pitcher

My "Matheny" Starting rotation

Martinez
Reyes
Wainwright
Lynn
Leake

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Dear Rick Ankiel's 'splodey brain - **** you. Ankiel would've been an all-timer. His progression just over the 2nd half of the 2000 season (combined with his video game numbers as a teenager in the minors) makes you hurt as a baseball fan for what might have been. The guy had Kershaw ability. People always talk about "how many pennants the Cardinals would've won had they not shipped out Steve Carlton" but I think they overlook just how dominant that team would've been in the 2000s if they'd have been able to add the best lefthanded starter in baseball to the roster. He was that good.

I'll always wonder if Ankiel's mental meltdown was inevitable, or just flared because of a perfect storm of playoff pressure and not having Mattheny there to be his security blanket due to his hunting knife incident. At the least it probably wouldn't have happened when it did, and we'd have gotten a little more use out of him.

Nice to know Mattheny's idiocy is still ****ing us up all these years later.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Frazod

I'll always wonder if Ankiel's mental meltdown was inevitable, or just flared because of a perfect storm of playoff pressure and not having Mattheny there to be his security blanket due to his hunting knife incident. At the least it probably wouldn't have happened when it did, and we'd have gotten a little more use out of him.

Nice to know Mattheny's idiocy is still ****ing us up all these years later.

I tend to think that the kid was so messed up that it was inevitable. The more you learn, the more you realize that the kid was a ticking timebomb and I'm not sure how he kept it together as long as he did.

The most ridiculous stat line I've ever seen in my life is what Rick Ankiel did to Johnson city at 21...AFTER the initial implosion.

14 starts, 87 IP, a 158-18 K/BB rate. Yes, you read that right, in 87 innings he struck out 158 guys and put up a K/BB rate approaching 9. In those 87 innings he allowed 60 baserunners. It's just impossible to be any better than that.

What really pisses me off is that in 2002 they had him sit out the entire season with an elbow sprain...just so they could operate on it anyway and cost him 2003. After a nice solid stint in 2004 in the minors and even his brief splash in the majors, he hit one guy in a spring training session in 2005 and simply refused to pitch anymore.

He'd recovered, blew up, recovered, blew up. I don't think there was any saving him.

Hate it. Just absolutely hate it.

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So does the age 25 season count? Because if so, I believe I have our answer.

Spoiler!

John Denny

I can't imagine anyone would've figured that one out.

EDIT: Nevermind, don't need the age 25 season and I'm annoyed I didn't think of him sooner.

Spoiler!

Joe Magrane

This little homework exercise reminded me how weird 80s baseball was. Nobody struck anybody out. Just a bunch of guys throwing 90 at the knees and hoping someone whacked it at a fielder.

That era was what made Clemens and the Big Unit so much more amazing.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by raybec 4

That era was what made Clemens and the Big Unit so much more amazing.

Johnson was a tick later (at least when he was really dominant). K's had started to go back up by then. But yeah, the things Clemens did at the time were unreal.

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So does the age 25 season count? Because if so, I believe I have our answer.

Spoiler!

John Denny

I can't imagine anyone would've figured that one out.

EDIT: Nevermind, don't need the age 25 season and I'm annoyed I didn't think of him sooner.

Spoiler!

Joe Magrane

This little homework exercise reminded me how weird 80s baseball was. Nobody struck anybody out. Just a bunch of guys throwing 90 at the knees and hoping someone whacked it at a fielder.

Carlton
Magraine
Martinez

[DJ's left nut]

So Montero got SUPER ****y last night.

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-cu...eras-nationals

And got his ass designated for assignment today.

Good for the Cubs. When your backup catcher is calling out the entire pitching staff in public (including guys that aren't even on the team anymore), he gotta go.

The friggen catcher is saying this. Unreal. What a dick.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So Montero got SUPER ****y last night.

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-cu...eras-nationals

And got his ass designated for assignment today.

Good for the Cubs. When your backup catcher is calling out the entire pitching staff in public (including guys that aren't even on the team anymore), he gotta go.

The friggen catcher is saying this. Unreal. What a dick.

Yeah, mostly.

In a way it is refreshing, however, to see a player actually say what he thinks instead of a bunch of mindless cliches. Sort of like the occasional celebrity who won't apologize for a non-PC gaffe.

I do understand why they shouldn't do it, and that it should be kept in the locker room. Montero may be a dick, and a hypocrite, and it looks he'll now be playing baseball in Iowa or elsewhere, but at least we know he's not a robot.

OTOH, the Cubs post-WS implosion is quite enjoyable.

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Steve Carlton's always a good guess. Looks like Carlos is #2. No idea on the other. Most of the other Cardinal 'greats' got a little later start. Tudor didn't start full-time until his mid-20s. Forsch might technically count as his age 25 season was his second year under 3 but he didn't qualify for the ERA title in year 1. Guys like Breachen and Walker are pre-WWII so I didn't bother to check on them.

Dear Rick Ankiel's 'splodey brain - **** you. Ankiel would've been an all-timer. His progression just over the 2nd half of the 2000 season (combined with his video game numbers as a teenager in the minors) makes you hurt as a baseball fan for what might have been. The guy had Kershaw ability. People always talk about "how many pennants the Cardinals would've won had they not shipped out Steve Carlton" but I think they overlook just how dominant that team would've been in the 2000s if they'd have been able to add the best lefthanded starter in baseball to the roster. He was that good.

Nobody had Kershaw ability. Unless they're in the Hall.


Ankiel had Strasbourg ability.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

Nobody had Kershaw ability. Unless they're in the Hall.


Ankiel had Strasbourg ability.

Strasburg was pitching in college at the same age Ankiel was dominating major league hitters.

Ankiel absolutely had HoF ability.

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Strasburg was pitching in college at the same age Ankiel was dominating major league hitters.

Ankiel absolutely had HoF ability.

Was Ankiel "dominating" MLB hitters? I knew he K'd people but dominated?



*Ankiel 20 he went 11-7 175 IP 194 K. But a 4.62 BB/9 and a 4.12 FIP with 12 WP. Very Good but hardly dominant.


*Strasburg age 22 debut: 5-3 68 IP 92k. 2.25 bb/9 2.08 FIP and 2 Wp before his arm blew.



So I'll stand on my comparison, which isn't punitive to Ankiel at all.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Where's BigRedChief ? He hasn't logged on for nearly 4 months ?????

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

Was Ankiel "dominating" MLB hitters? I knew he K'd people but dominated?



*Ankiel 20 he went 11-7 175 IP 194 K. But a 4.62 BB/9 and a 4.12 FIP with 12 WP. Very Good but hardly dominant.


*Strasburg age 22 debut: 5-3 68 IP 92k. 2.25 bb/9 2.08 FIP and 2 Wp before his arm blew.



So I'll stand on my comparison, which isn't punitive to Ankiel at all.

His second half during the height of the steroid era is easily considered 'dominating'.

[IMG][/IMG]

And projecting a 20 yr old kid's second half is a pretty fair thing to do. He'd found his command and with every start was getting more and more capable of setting up hitters and using all the weapons at his disposal. The K rate, WHIP and OPS+ most assuredly qualifies as 'dominant', especially for the era.

Moreover, equating 22 and 20 isn't entirely fair - it's pretty well established at this point that the best way to identify HoF caliber talent is to find guys capable of excelling at ages very few can. The Harpers, Trouts, Machados, Correas and (sadly) Fernandez's of the world are out there at 20 yrs old making major leaguers look silly.

Rick Ankiel was absolutely in that class at 20.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Meh mental makeup is too big of a part of the game to lump him in with Kershaw. Dude was a nut with a very limited sample size of success.

[Prison Bitch]

1) Just pointing out Ankiel was already wild prior to his playoff meltdown. Lotta walks and WP. Most of the stars you mention didn't have a glaring prOblem in their toolkit.


2 Consider this: WAR factors al metrics right? 2000 MLB pitching war leaders:

29. Astacio
30. Robert Person
31. ANKIEL
32. Dempster
33. Chris Holt
34. Brian Moehler


Ever heard of any of them? Not age-adj but still.


3). His K rate gets the benefit of being in the NL and playing in a K era.


4) Strasburg at 20 was the only college player on the US Olympic team in Beijing. Played with MLB players. At 21 he was #1 pick and immediately BBA #2 prospect headed into 2010. He'd have walked into any MLB rotation the day he was drafted


5). The only way to look at this is historically. Only 75 pitchers have 150ip+ seasons by age 20 and some have multiple (Gooden, feller, etc) so 65 unique guys. Ankiel 2000 ranks:

K/9: 2
War: 14
BB/9: 62
FIP: 62
HR/9: 70


We can prob strip out the K and HR rate as a product of his time. I'd guess all pitchers improved during the season too. The best guess I have is: Frank Tanana. That's his comp

[Marcellus]

Dammit every time this thread gets posted in I open it hoping someone has been fired.