***Official Soccer Thread***

[POND_OF_RED]

Creating a new thread for soccer discussion since the Euro’s are done.

Most leagues are in preseason and Sporting KC are currently in a battle for the best record in the league to win the shield. We just sent Busio who’s a young Sporting youth academy player and possible future American star to Venezia to compete in the top division in Italy for a 6.5 million dollar transfer fee with up to $11 million with incentives and a 20% future sell-on rate if they sell him to another team. Not to mention another past youth academy player from Lee’s Summit and another possible World Cup starter Erik Palmer-Brown looks to be joining him at Venezia soon as well. If you’re looking for an Italian team to start rooting for with your new Paramount+ subscription they would be a good candidate with some local flavor.

The U.S has built a little power shift in the CONCACAF region with their wins over Mexico lately in Nations and Gold Cup finals and look to be in really good shape heading into the World Cup qualifiers next month.

Messi looks to be on the move as well. Let’s hope it’s not a worthless one to PSG for everyone’s sake.

Ok, CP feel free to remind me how gay soccer is now. Don’t care. Sporting is kicking ass and so is the USA. It’s a good time to be following along. Discuss…

Spoiler!

[Garcia Bronco]

The MLS hasn't "caught on" in the United States. The only claim to fame that they have right now is Lionel Messi. Who's playing in the United States because it is the last refuge for professional soccer players that aren't good enough to play in any other league.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

The MLS hasn't "caught on" in the United States. The only claim to fame that they have right now is Lionel Messi. Who's playing in the United States because it is the last refuge for professional soccer players that aren't good enough to play in any other league.

I mean what are people expecting? That it's going to be the NFL? It doesn't have to be. And women's soccer doesn't have to be as successful as MLS. MLS is more than viable.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Money was funneled into the MLS for good reason. Of course the usmnt is #1 priority and it took an all in effort for decades to get it off the ground. I'm not saying it's an injustice. It was the right thing to do. But the women's pro league wasn't prioritized not because it wasn't interesting but because there was a red hot fire to triple down on a ginormous decades long effort to built the foundation for American men's soccer. That includes using women's earnings and pumping that into MLS. That meant pumping all public funds on MLS stadiums and pumping all marketing into MLS.

Now that infrastructure is built and MLS is self sustaining. Women's success helped get MLS off the ground, so why not return the favor? Most of the core usmnt roster plays in Europe on multimillion dollar contracts where women rely solely on US soccer pay. When I say women's soccer hasn't gotten attention. I don't mean people don't care.. The US has done a great job promoting the national team but They put zero into women's pro league infrastructure. That's changing. And the game has changed. US can't just underinvest because they're the only country that cares. Now they're having to compete with European leagues who are poaching them with better salary. US soccer needs to invest to maintain dominance. But now they compete for a way bigger purse because the international scale is growing rapidly

I think you're speaking to more a self fulfilling prophecy that people don't want to invest in women's soccer because it isn't popular, and it isn't popular because nobody is investing in it. Thats exactly what Europe said. It wasn't until 2019 til they took it seriously. You know how many attended their women's euro league final live? 91k. I'm guessing they're kicking themselves for waiting so long to care about it. I don't think it's fair to judge women's pro leagues until you earnestly try. But there are plenty of signs that it will thrive. International popularity is booming, sponsors are raking in tons of cash and uswnt has been popular even without infrastructure. And as the women's game grows, mens soccer benefits too. Why wouldn't they work together to grow the game so that both pots can be benefit?

I am not disagreeing with you that it took time for the MLS to take off, nor can I disagree that it was women's earnings that were used to prop up the MLS (precisely because I don't know enough about it to confirm or deny what you state).

I am not against helping prop up a women's pro league either. I question how successful it would be long term. There is zero precedence showing that it will and I still think you are not grasping the difference between a national team that people will rally behind and support due to national pride and local teams. Just because the USWNT is successful does not mean that their success will carry forward. We can debate why women's sports are money losers all day, but the reality is they are. Maybe (and I don't know for sure) women's college basketball is self funding.

Some of the USMNT players get big contracts in Europe, many do not though. They rely on MLS salaries which are far less in most cases. We live in an era of the internet, it is easy to follow almost anything now. People are not ignorant of local teams, they just don't show up in numbers reflective of the USWNT's popularity. This again goes back to the national support vs local support.

European teams have and for the foreseeable future will continue to poach the best American talent and the state of women's soccer won't impact that even in the slightest. Soccer here is arguably team sport #5 on the pecking list, and unless that changes we will continue to lose the best players. Think Japanese baseball players. The best in Japan always move to MLB if given the chance as the best of the best play here.

Now I am not judging women's pro leagues. I have a passing interest in soccer. I will watch a game or two now and then, so I am not in the "women's soccer sucks" category. I keep beating this horse or "Bronco", but attendance numbers and history do not lie. There are enough people out there who can grow and sustain the game......they just aren't. It's not a self fulfilling prophecy to say that the investment isn't there due to a lack of popularity. If women's soccer stadiums were selling out or being filled above capacity, the incentive to build bigger ones would be there. Media would line up to stream or broadcast their games and advertisers would line up to get ads and endorsements.

Lastly, using what works in Europe as a gauge for what will work here does not fly. The US is not Europe, especially when it comes to sports. Could pro women's sports leagues succeed? Possibly. But I was born and raised in Missouri, so "show me".

[DJJasonp]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

The MLS hasn't "caught on" in the United States. The only claim to fame that they have right now is Lionel Messi. Who's playing in the United States because it is the last refuge for professional soccer players that aren't good enough to play in any other league.

LOL….Messi just won the World Cup. He can play anywhere in the world and still be a top player.

[Eleazar]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

The MLS hasn't "caught on" in the United States. The only claim to fame that they have right now is Lionel Messi. Who's playing in the United States because it is the last refuge for professional soccer players that aren't good enough to play in any other league.

MLS has a decidedly minor league feel, but there's nowhere near the money that there is Europe, unless you're one of these gray haired superstars on a retirement tour.

But the league has stuck around for almost 30 years old now, and the teams play in better stadiums than comparable teams in other leagues... the third tier in England or whatever. It's doing OK for what it is.

The level of play won't improve until the money improves, but with changing demographics in the US the money could improve over time.

[alpha_omega]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

BTW, i've been watching the WNBA all month.

/ducks for cover

**** you guys, it's the dog days of sports and I'm a sports junky.

Ha. I was with you when you said you were watching NASCAR, but WNBA is a bridge too far for me.

[bdj23]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

The MLS hasn't "caught on" in the United States. The only claim to fame that they have right now is Lionel Messi. Who's playing in the United States because it is the last refuge for professional soccer players that aren't good enough to play in any other league.

MLS is shit. The one and only MLS game I've been to might as well have been a political rally.

[AdolfOliverBush]

Of course women don't watch women's sports in large numbers. They don't want to pay for an inferior product any more than men do.

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by bdj23

MLS is shit. The one and only MLS game I've been to might as well have been a political rally.

Sadly athletes being radicalized is something we're going to have to put up with. Especially since owners won't put the kibosh on their employee's on-field, in uniform, actions. They can say what they want off the clock (if their contract doesn't have something covering things they can't do even "off the clock" personal conduct clause, or liking the wrong Tweet, and the team can deal with retaining the player later if the things they choose to do on their own time carries over and affects the team.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by AdolfOliverBush

Of course women don't watch women's sports in large numbers. They don't want to pay for an inferior product any more than men do.

Again where is this coming from. It is not backed by any data that shows audiences, predominantly women, are watching and attending national and champions league games in large numbers. Why is it hard for people to fathom that girls watching soccer and their moms and their dads might be drawn to the sport. And that they'd idolize women's soccer players the way we idolized Jordan and Montana? It's weird the way people project that someone else wouldn't like something just because it isn't for them.

MLS is an inferior product yet it's doing quite well with men and women. College sports especially outside big conferences is inferior. Minor league sports is inferior. Women's tennis is inferior. We watch inferior athleres all the time

[Gary Cooper]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

The MLS hasn't "caught on" in the United States. The only claim to fame that they have right now is Lionel Messi. Who's playing in the United States because it is the last refuge for professional soccer players that aren't good enough to play in any other league.

Messi is still one of the world's top players. His stats last year in PSG were good. And he was the best player in the World Cup and played every minute of that tournament. Not sure if there's another player named Messi you're thinking of.

[AdolfOliverBush]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Again where is this coming from. It is not backed by any data that shows audiences, predominantly women, are watching and attending national and champions league games in large numbers. Why is it hard for people to fathom that girls watching soccer and their moms and their dads might be drawn to the sport. And that they'd idolize women's soccer players the way we idolized Jordan and Montana? It's weird the way people project that someone else wouldn't like something just because it isn't for them.

You said it yourself: Women's soccer needs help. It's not just a marketing thing. Women obviously aren't supporting the sport in large enough numbers. If they were, the revenue generated by the men's and women's teams would be comparable.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

MLS is an inferior product yet it's doing quite well with men and women. College sports especially outside big conferences is inferior. Minor league sports is inferior. Women's tennis is inferior. We watch inferior athleres all the time

And those inferior sports/athletes generally don't bring in as much revenue as their superior counterparts.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tredadda

I am not disagreeing with you that it took time for the MLS to take off, nor can I disagree that it was women's earnings that were used to prop up the MLS (precisely because I don't know enough about it to confirm or deny what you state).

I am not against helping prop up a women's pro league either. I question how successful it would be long term. There is zero precedence showing that it will and I still think you are not grasping the difference between a national team that people will rally behind and support due to national pride and local teams. Just because the USWNT is successful does not mean that their success will carry forward. We can debate why women's sports are money losers all day, but the reality is they are. Maybe (and I don't know for sure) women's college basketball is self funding.

Some of the USMNT players get big contracts in Europe, many do not though. They rely on MLS salaries which are far less in most cases. We live in an era of the internet, it is easy to follow almost anything now. People are not ignorant of local teams, they just don't show up in numbers reflective of the USWNT's popularity. This again goes back to the national support vs local support.

European teams have and for the foreseeable future will continue to poach the best American talent and the state of women's soccer won't impact that even in the slightest. Soccer here is arguably team sport #5 on the pecking list, and unless that changes we will continue to lose the best players. Think Japanese baseball players. The best in Japan always move to MLB if given the chance as the best of the best play here.

Now I am not judging women's pro leagues. I have a passing interest in soccer. I will watch a game or two now and then, so I am not in the "women's soccer sucks" category. I keep beating this horse or "Bronco", but attendance numbers and history do not lie. There are enough people out there who can grow and sustain the game......they just aren't. It's not a self fulfilling prophecy to say that the investment isn't there due to a lack of popularity. If women's soccer stadiums were selling out or being filled above capacity, the incentive to build bigger ones would be there. Media would line up to stream or broadcast their games and advertisers would line up to get ads and endorsements.

Lastly, using what works in Europe as a gauge for what will work here does not fly. The US is not Europe, especially when it comes to sports. Could pro women's sports leagues succeed? Possibly. But I was born and raised in Missouri, so "show me".

Nah, appreciate the discussion. I get where you're coming from and you make lots of good points. Not knocking you at all for seeing it as a risk. It is.

I just dont think it's fair to suggest that the league should thrive without investment and that investors aren't investing because they don't see potential. You have to have stadiums in good markets with good promos and experiences, and then you need expansion to build scale for better TV and sponsorship deals. It's an unusual situation where the balls out urgency to build MLS made that very challenging. So over the next year's we'll see where it goes now that they're serious about trying. That's a better benchmark than the past. Initial results are promising. International popularity is growing exponentially which means more money, sponsorships and prizes. Newer markets are pulling 15-20k per game which is way more than the highest wnba market (and they've been actually trying). Kc current is building their own stadium. And probably the biggest litmus test, two expansion teams are paying a $50m expansion fee which is really substantial. It's just so different from the wnba which was given time and investment and flat out failed. Or us softball which was never even popular on the national stage. There's teeth to this one.

I also think the situation is way more favorable for the US. There's no reason why we couldn't be a premier women's soccer market. Unlike men's, there's little competition for the best athletes. It is THE sport right now for girls. And there's no competition with other women's leagues which have proven to be totally unviable. And I don't think there's as much competition for men's sports as we think as their market is very different.

[Woogieman]

Originally Posted by Razaele

MLS has a decidedly minor league feel, but there's nowhere near the money that there is Europe, unless you're one of these gray haired superstars on a retirement tour.

But the league has stuck around for almost 30 years old now, and the teams play in better stadiums than comparable teams in other leagues... the third tier in England or whatever. It's doing OK for what it is.

The level of play won't improve until the money improves, but with changing demographics in the US the money could improve over time.

The money will improve and slowly but surely, global talent will come at younger and younger ages and a Top 8-10 league in the world is very realistic in the next decade.

[Ocotillo]

Originally Posted by AdolfOliverBush

Of course women don't watch women's sports in large numbers. They don't want to pay for an inferior product any more than men do.

The draw of watching men's soccer is to see the skill of world class players.

The skills of women are not even remotely close. The same problem with women's basketball.

That's not to say women sports can't be marketable. There's a reason why women's tennis has equal interest to men's tennis and why women's figure skating is more popular than the men's. Women fights are also popular in the UFC because a fight is a fight.