How would YOU try to improve the defense?

[UChieffyBugger]

Amid all the hysteria over our two wins and offensive performances, I'm just wondering what can realistically be done to improve the defense? Now we know Berry will hopefully be returning soon which should be massive, but with the way this offense is looking, just a slight improvement on defense could take us to the promise land yall. So does Veach sit, be patient and hope Berry is enough to improve things? Should he get on the phone and beg Breeland to join the kingdom? Or should he seek to make a trade of some sort?

I think I'd probably go with trying to get Breeland in and with Berry added to the mix I think the unit would be vastly improved.

...Breeland...Berry...Parker...Fuller...

With Nelson In the slot. Surely that would be enough?

[kccrow]

Ah, the Marcus Peters cry fest continues. **** Marcus Peters.

[pugsnotdrugs19]

Originally Posted by New World Order

Our outside corners I thought played pretty well. It's the middle of the field that is killing us. We need safety help.

When we brought pressure we forced them to punt.

When we rushed 3 or 4 they scored.

If Berry isn't out there they need to play a high risk/high reward style. Sitting back and giving an elite qb 10 seconds to throw is death.

Man, I think I'd go for broke on defense even when Berry does come back.

Because if you can give this offense extra possessions.... deuces. Over. See ya later.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

Well we did draft an All Pro corner and then gave him away for peanuts

That's why he's a miss. It doesn't matter how great of a player he is if he's playing for someone else.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by Jimmya

New York Jets and Bob Sutton: Awful Match
SMUSH HIGGINS
DECEMBER 9, 2008


He shouldn't be smiling; he should be crying. Sutton is awful.

In the last two games, Jets defensive coordinator Bob Sutton has been sending three or four-man rushes every play, and seven or eight coverage defenders. Nothing is ever going to be accomplished if you don't send five to seven blitzers. If they don't, the opponent's rushing game will be gaining four to five yards a carry—so will the passing game.

Teams are more conservative with their passing game, using screen and dump passes. For example, Broncos FB/RB Peyton Hillis was killing the Jets on the ground two weeks ago, and still Sutton sent the four-man rush. San Francisco QB Shaun Hill had a great passing day last week and had five seconds of time to throw and guess what...NO PASS RUSH!

Then they drafted Darelle Revis and Sheldon Richardson and went to 2 straight AFC Championship Games...

You realize that, right?

This quote is 10 years old.

Ya ****ing rube.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

That's why he's a miss. It doesn't matter how great of a player he is if he's an asshole who atracks coaches, chokes his own mom, and threatens to kill the team bus driver.

FYP

[CoMoChief]

Originally Posted by ping2000

1. Push Sutton's wheelchair into traffic. Addition by subtraction.
2. Bring in Patches O'Houlahan and throw wrenches at the defense. Won't make them better, but they deserve to be hit by wrenches.

[pugsnotdrugs19]

They should be playing ultra aggressive, just trying to get 2-3 turnovers each week even if it means they give up 27 points a game or whatever.

Give the offense extra possessions and they're probably gonna score 40+.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by Jimmya

New York Jets and Bob Sutton: Awful Match
SMUSH HIGGINS
DECEMBER 9, 2008


He shouldn't be smiling; he should be crying. Sutton is awful.

In the last two games, Jets defensive coordinator Bob Sutton has been sending three or four-man rushes every play, and seven or eight coverage defenders. Nothing is ever going to be accomplished if you don't send five to seven blitzers. If they don't, the opponent's rushing game will be gaining four to five yards a carry—so will the passing game.

Teams are more conservative with their passing game, using screen and dump passes. For example, Broncos FB/RB Peyton Hillis was killing the Jets on the ground two weeks ago, and still Sutton sent the four-man rush. San Francisco QB Shaun Hill had a great passing day last week and had five seconds of time to throw and guess what...NO PASS RUSH!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.arr...all-bob-sutton

Bob Sutton put Justin Houston in coverage way too much, and it’s killing the defense.
The defense constantly rushing three and dropping eight resulted in no pressure on the quarterback.
Even when the defense rushed four or more, they weren’t able to get pressure and allowed Carr all day to dice them up.
Bob Sutton is the major problem as the defensive coordinator.
These narratives were interesting to me, and I quite frankly agreed with all of them after watching the game live. Of course, years of experience as to my own inability to adequately diagnose the game live has made me skeptical of my own instant reactions to any game. So I felt like it was time to take a look at these narratives to see if they are true.

(NOTE: I’m not concerned with arguing whether the defense was bad against the Raiders. That the passing defense was bad is beyond dispute. I’m curious as to WHY they were bad. What actually happened out there? And are the popular narratives correct?)

I’ve already discussed these issues on the Chiefs in the North podcast, and you can find that episode here.


But for those of you who aren’t podcast listeners, I thought it only appropriate to lay out what I found here as well. Because it’s too important (well, maybe “important” is the wrong word. I mean, it’s important to ME, but I have issues) to let bad information get disseminated without at least trying to put forth a little reality.

Number 1: Bob Sutton put Justin Houston in coverage way too much, and it’s killing the defense.
We’re going to start with a half-truth. Because on one hand, it IS true that Houston spends too much time in coverage. As recently as last week it was discussed that Houston has been in coverage on a quarter of the Chiefs’ snaps against the pass this season. Compared to guys like Khalil Mack or Von Miller, who are in coverage maybe 5% of the time or so, it becomes clear that Sutton isn’t using Houston to rush enough.

However, this narrative has started to take on a life of its own. I have people telling me that Houston is in coverage half the time or more, and that’s simply not true. Against Oakland, Houston dropped into coverage 11 times in about 55 dropbacks. Now, is 20 percent still too much? Yes, I think so. But it’s not half. It’s not close to half. It’s not close to close to half.


Additionally, you need to know that it WASN’T Houston’s snaps in coverage that killed the defense. In fact, the only touchdown of the night given up when Houston was in coverage was the two yard throw at the end of the game, where they rolled away from Houston’s side and he wasn’t a factor in the play regardless. Not one of the Raiders “big” plays (20+ yards) was when Justin Houston was in coverage. In fact, on the 11 plays, only 2 of them went for more than 10 yards. On five of them, the result was an incomplete pass.

In short, while it’s true that Houston is dropping into coverage more than he should the idea that that’s what hurt the defense against Oakland is patently false.

Number 2: The defense was constantly rushing three against Oakland, which resulted in too little pressure and the defense hurting.
This one is just flat-out wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The Chiefs dropped eight into coverage a TOTAL of six times against the Raiders. That’s it. Six times.

Guess how many of those times were one of Oakland’s big plays? If you guessed none, you’d be right. The Chiefs gave up a total of 24 yards on those plays where they rushed three and dropped eight into coverage.

The really funny thing here is that I was CERTAIN I would find quite a few plays because I felt like a noticed quite a few on initial viewing. The lesson, as always, is twofold: never trust your broadcast viewing, and I’m an idiot.

Number 3: Even when the defense rushed four or more, they weren’t able to get pressure and allowed Carr all day to dice them up.
This is another narrative I had no problem believing, because I felt like I watched Carr have tons of time on multiple snaps. Then I turned on the tape, and I found a very different story. We’re going to let Justin Houston demonstrate what the actual issue was on multiple snaps



What do those two snaps have in common? They both involve Houston winning 1x1 against the RT, and they both involve throws that come out so quickly that it doesn’t matter.


Oakland got the ball out early consistently. There appeared to be an emphasis on Carr throwing quickly to take the pass rush out of the game, and the Chiefs were unable to hang in coverage for even two seconds on multiple snaps. When a QB’s first read is open and the ball comes out that quickly, there’s not much a pass rusher can do. Coverage and pressure are symbiotic. The idea is that coverage can stay on point for at least 2.5 seconds or so, and that the pressure can get there in that amount of time.

It wasn’t just Houston either (though he had the most snaps like that). Dee Ford and Chris Jones both got close multiple times on snaps where Carr just got rid of the ball too quickly to be threatened by the rush.

And then, of course, there were a few plays killed by penalties, none bigger than this one.


How different would your recollection be of the pass rush if it forced a huge fumble that led to points? Sometimes that’s how narrow the margin is between one narrative and another.


Oh, and in case you wanted to watch Murray during his “illegal contact.” Warning: DO NOT give in to the temptation to destroy your phone, tablet or computer...


Gross. Just gross. But I can’t dwell on that. Let’s return to my point.

The point of showing you the Houston snaps is that pass rushing isn’t just about the guys rushing the passer (oddly enough). The Chiefs actually DID get some pressure on Carr. The problem, on WAY too many snaps, was that the coverage broke down so quickly that it simply didn’t matter.

Of course, there WERE snaps where the rush didn’t get to Carr quickly enough. So let me be clear... I’m NOT saying the pass rush was great. I am saying simply that the pass rush was, on many snaps, getting what should be enough pressure to affect the quarterback, and failures elsewhere negated it.

Additionally, the Raiders did a good job with play action on some snaps, forcing the Chiefs to go into position to defend the run, which they often did (stopping the run was clearly a point of emphasis in that game). When a defensive player goes into defending the run, usually by trying to stand up straight and hold the blocker at bay while he minds his gaps, it gives offensive linemen the edge they need to hold up in pass protection when the the defender realizes he’s been had. That’s one reason play action is such a good idea to slow down an aggressive pass rush IF you think they’ll respect it.


All in all, the pass rush was OK, but nothing to write home about. It was the failures in the secondary that were the real issue for the Chiefs, not rushing the passer. Which brings me to my last narrative that needs to be busted.

Number 4: Bob Sutton is a major problem as the defensive coordinator.
I’ve heard a lot of people give a lot of opinions about Sutton. About how he lacks creativity, is slow to adjust, doesn’t put the players in a position to succeed, etc.

Of course, a lot of the complaints I’ve heard about Sutton center around the first two narratives I addressed. However, I wanted to dig a little deeper, so I re-watched every single play for Oakland that went beyond 10 yards in the passing game, asking in each situation whether the failure was schematic or in execution

This is one of the biggest plays of the game. Sutton (correctly) thought that doubling up on Cooper would be the smart bet, so he had Sorensen help Mitchell deep with the intention of bracketing Cooper.

However, Cooper got open anyways, using a jab step to the outside to get both Sorensen and Mitchell wrong-hipped (Sorensen in particular bit HARD), then cutting back inside. Carr, who DID have way too much time in the pocket on this particular snap, saw this and made a nice throw deep with enough velocity to beat Ron Parker to the spot (to his credit, Parker gives Cooper a nice shot and almost gets there on time to break up the pass. Without him this is an even bigger play).

That’s a play where the coach put his players in a position to succeed AND correctly guessed what player to key on. It’s on the players to execute that.


Similar issue here, on Cooper’s 2nd TD.


As far as I can tell, Murray fails to pick up Cooper as he’s handed off in coverage, then doubles down on his mental error by taking a horrific angle to Cooper, letting a big play turn into a HUGE play.

This wasn’t a scheme failure. The players were in place to stop this. They just didn’t do their job, and it wasn’t a particularly tough job. Stuff like that isn’t on the defensive coordinator, especially when these are players we’ve seen execute this stuff CORRECTLY. Sutton can’t predict that guys will suddenly blow coverages like this, or bite ridiculously hard on a run fake...


I could go on, but we’ve already covered over a hundred yards of offense as well as a touchdown. If you throw in Cooper’s first touchdown (whether you pin that on Mitchell falling or the official), that’s another 40 yards and touchdown that falls squarely on the shoulders of someone who ISN’T Bob Sutton.

If you re-watch Oakland’s successful passing plays, the vast majority of them were failures of execution, not scheme. The players aren’t being asked to do things that are out of their skillset (other than Sutton’s seeming belief that Sorense/Parker/Murray are interchangeable, that one is a legit criticism), so I can’t fault Sutton for believing his guys can execute what he’s drawing up

[ping2000]

Hmm, how would I improve this defense?

[FloridaMan88]

Fire Bob Sutton and trade for Earl Thomas.

Can’t waste this opportunity with the historic Mahomes offense.

Time to go all in.

[Molitoth]

Remember people saying Alex smith would be fine if we could improve the OLine and WRs?
Now people say Bob Sutton will be fine if we replace the entire defense.

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by Molitoth

Remember people saying Alex smith would be fine if we could improve the OLine and WRs?
Now people say Bob Sutton will be fine if we replace the entire defense.

Bob Sutton would find a way to mess up the 2001 Ravens defense or 1985 Bears defense.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19

Man, I think I'd go for broke on defense even when Berry does come back.

Because if you can give this offense extra possessions.... deuces. Over. See ya later.

THATS WHAT IM SAYING. Bring pressure and take your lumps. At least it'll be quick. Let's see them try to hang with Patrick and the boys.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88

Bob Sutton would find a way to mess up the 2001 Ravens defense or 1985 Bears defense.

He took the Jets to 2 AFC Championship Games with Buttfumble at QB.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by Molitoth

Now people say Bob Sutton will be fine if we replace the entire defense.

No one ever said that.

You're a ****ing liar.

I said give him a starting caliber DT and a shutdown corner and he'd be fine.