Joe Montana is still the greatest ever....

[milkman]

....and nothing that Peyton Manning does will ever change that.

[Royal Fanatic]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

My list:

1. Joe Montana (steady stream of injuries bothers me though)
2. John Elway (though I'll listen to an argument that puts him at 1 due to durability)
3. Peyton Manning
4. Bart Starr
5. Brett Favre
6. Dan Marino
7. Johnny Unitas
8. Roger Staubach
9. Steve Young
10. Tom Brady

That list works for me. I'll probably root for the Colts next week because I think Manning is damn close to being the GOAT and he needs at least a couple of Super Bowl victories to be remembered that way.

But where the hell is Thigpen???

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Exactly right.

Right now the top 3 is Montana, Elway and Manning. I cannot fathom anyone arguing that Brady is better than Manning, it's just mind-boggling. If Manning wins a 2nd, he's right alongside Elway (needing only longetivity to surpass him, IMO).



My list:

1. Joe Montana (steady stream of injuries bothers me though)
2. John Elway (though I'll listen to an argument that puts him at 1 due to durability)
3. Peyton Manning
4. Bart Starr
5. Brett Favre
6. Dan Marino
7. Johnny Unitas
8. Roger Staubach
9. Steve Young
10. Tom Brady

And no, Bradshaw doesn't make my list for precisely the reason listed above -- he won SBs in an era where his team was simply better than everyone elses. He's #11 on there, but any one of the QBs above him would've won those 4 SBs with the team he was on.

Brett Favre at number 5 is a joke, and you lost any crdibility you may have had with that.

To be fair, you didn't have any to begin with.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by milkman

Brett Favre at number 5 is a joke, and you lost any crdibility you may have had with that.

To be fair, you didn't have any to begin with.

I can live with the 'Brady is better than Manning' guy thinking I have no credibility here.

With as much energy as you spend moving the goalposts in this discussion, I can't exactly expect much in the way of salient analysis from you.

Brett Favre at his peak was an absolutely incredible QB. People have spent the last 5 years knocking him so they forget how incredible he was when he was younger. Had the man died in a car wreck at 34 years old, nobody would've thought twice about putting him at 5.

[Gadzooks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

salient.

Nice word.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I can live with the 'Brady is better than Manning' guy thinking I have no credibility here.

With as much energy as you spend moving the goalposts in this discussion, I can't exactly expect much in the way of salient analysis from you.

Brett Favre at his peak was an absolutely incredible QB. People have spent the last 5 years knocking him so they forget how incredible he was when he was younger. Had the man died in a car wreck at 34 years old, nobody would've thought twice about putting him at 5.

Moving the goalposts, my ass.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Zooks

I feel the same way aboot ben roethlisberger and she-li

I see a TON of similarities in Roethlisberger and Bradshaw. Both guys were flat out bigger than their contemporaries. They both got by on guile and leadership more than being 'pure' passers.

I think both are certainly top-shelf QBs (unlike Eli, who I think is average at best), but I just can't put Bradshaw in that top 10, nor can I put Ben in a discussion with Peyton or Brady, despite similiar SB success.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I can live with the 'Brady is better than Manning' guy thinking I have no credibility here.

With as much energy as you spend moving the goalposts in this discussion, I can't exactly expect much in the way of salient analysis from you.

Brett Favre at his peak was an absolutely incredible QB. People have spent the last 5 years knocking him so they forget how incredible he was when he was younger. Had the man died in a car wreck at 34 years old, nobody would've thought twice about putting him at 5.

Oh, and for the record, I've been knocking Favre for a hell of lot longer than 5 years.

You don't throw interceptions at the rate he has thrown them in his career, and at the rate he's thrown them in the playoffs, and get top 5.

[Crush]

Montana may be the best, but there needs to be some love for Otto Graham.

Career highlights and awards:

• 5× Pro Bowl selection (1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954)
• 9× All-Pro selection (1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955)
• 1× Second-team All-Pro selcetion (1950)
• NFL 75th Anniversary Team
• NFL 1950s All-Decade Team
• 3× UPI NFL MVP (1951, 53, 55)
• Pro Bowl MVP (1950)
• AAFC co-MVP (1948)
• AAFC MVP (1947)
• Cleveland Browns #14 retired

Thursday, February 12, 2004 Graham won seven pro titles Associated Press CLEVELAND -- For 10 seasons, Otto Graham personified perfection, the Cleveland Browns and greatness. No quarterback has done it better. Graham's Career Statistics Year Com Att Yards TD INT 1946 95 174 1,834 17 5 1947 163 269 2,753 25 11 1948 173 333 2,713 25 15 1949 161 285 2,785 19 10 AAFC Totals 592 1,061 10,085 86 41 1950 137 253 1,943 14 20 1951 147 265 2,205 17 16 1952 181 364 2,816 20 24 1953 167 258 2,722 11 9 1954 142 240 2,092 11 17 1955 98 185 1,721 15 8 NFL Totals 872 1,565 13,499 88 94 The Hall of Famer, who led the Browns to 10 championship games in the 10 seasons he played for them, died Wednesday of an aneurysm to the heart. He was 82. Graham died in Sarasota, Fla., team spokesman Todd Stewart said. Graham was taken to Sarasota Memorial Hospital earlier in the day with a tear in his aorta, said his son Duey. Before Johnny Unitas, Joe Namath or Joe Montana, Graham set the bar for all NFL quarterbacks by winning more consistently than anyone else. "The test of a quarterback is where his team finishes," said Paul Brown, Graham's coach in Cleveland. "By that standard, Otto Graham was the best of all time." Graham helped the Browns become a football dynasty -- first in the All-America Football Conference and later in the NFL. He quarterbacked Cleveland teams in the 1940s and '50s that included Hall of Famers such as Marion Motley, Dante Lavelli, Lou Groza and Bill Willis. "He was as great of a quarterback as there ever was," said longtime friend George Steinbrenner, who grew up in Cleveland. "He was a god in Cleveland." "Automatic Otto" never missed a game as a pro while passing for 23,584 yards and 174 touchdowns. Graham finished his career with an astounding 105-17-4 regular-season record. He took Brown's teams to the title game in each season from 1946 to 1955. "That's hard to beat," said Sammy Baugh, a contemporary of Graham's and also a Hall of Famer. With Graham as their quarterback, the Browns won four championships in the AAFC and three NFL titles. He was MVP of the AAFC three times. Graham, who wore uniform numbers 14 and 60, was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1965. In 1994, Graham was picked for the NFL's 75th anniversary team, joining quarterbacks Baugh, Unitas and Montana. "Otto Graham was the superstar of the 1950s, when the NFL was gaining stability and growing in popularity," NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue said Wednesday night. "He helped glamorize the sport by winning championships and elevating the role of quarterback as the NFL entered the television era. "He also played a major role in building the tradition of the Cleveland Browns." After dominating the AAFC with an innovative offense that was ahead of its time, Graham and the Browns moved into the more-established NFL in 1950. They opened in Philadelphia against the defending champion Eagles, and Graham's first pass in the NFL went for a touchdown as the Browns stunned the sports world with a 35-10 win. Cleveland went 12-2 during the regular season, then defeated the Los Angeles Rams, who had defected from Cleveland after winning the 1945 title. The Browns lost in the NFL title game the next three years before winning the 1954 championship behind Graham, who ran for three TDs and threw three more in Cleveland's 56-10 rout of Detroit. After the game, Graham announced he was retiring. But he was talked into making a comeback on the eve of the 1955 season opener and led the Browns to yet another title. In his final game, 33-year-old Graham threw two TD passes and ran for two more as the Browns beat the Rams 38-14. "I liked all his quarterback skills," Baugh told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "I thought he was one of the better quarterbacks in the league. He had a smart head and a good arm." Graham later coached the Washington Redskins from 1966 to 1968 -- he compiled a 17-22-3 record and was replaced by Vince Lombardi in 1969. Coaching the Redskins was just a lark, according to the team's quarterback, Sonny Jurgensen. "He said he was not cut out to coach professional football, but he did it for [Redskins owner] Edward Bennett Williams," said Jurgensen, also a Hall of Famer. Graham, who also made history as the first player to wear a face mask, took great pride in his many career records -- and that they all came with his beloved Browns. "How many players stay with the same team for 10 years these days? It's a different time, a different game," he said on a visit to Browns Stadium in 2002. Otto Everett Graham Jr. began setting records on the first day of his life in Waukegan, Ill. He weighed a state record 14 pounds, 12 ounces at birth. Graham went to Northwestern on a basketball scholarship and played intramural football, leading his team to a fraternity championship. Wildcats football coach Lynn "Pappy" Waldorf noticed the freshman and invited him to a spring tryout. He was an All-American in both basketball and football in 1943 and finished third in the Heisman Trophy voting won by Notre Dame's Angelo Bertelli. In 1959, on the recommendation of Steinbrenner, Graham became athletic director and football coach at the U.S. Coast Guard Academy. He left the Coast Guard to become general manager and coach of the Redskins in 1966. He is survived by his wife of 57 years, Beverly; three children: Duey, Sandy and Dave; two foster daughters; 16 grandchildren; and four great-grandchildren.

[RedThat]

Nobody is as good as Peyton Manning. Nobody. I repeat, NOBODY! I can see him playing for another 5-6 years and he will be his consistent self as usual, and he is not slowing down at all.

If he keeps this up, regardless of championships, you add 5-6 more years of experience on his career resume and his productivity and play will speak high volumes. He already is and will be the greatest imo.

[KcMizzou]

Originally Posted by milkman

....and nothing that Peyton Manning does will ever change that.

Respect ya, Milk... but that's just a stupid thing to say.

[Gadzooks]

Originally Posted by Admiral Crunch

Montana may be the best, but there needs to be some love for Otto Graham.

Otto was the ****in' man!!!11!!1. Easily top 5

[milkman]

Oh, and Manning and Roethlisberger are roughly the same size, with BR having 10 lbs on Manning.

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by Zooks

Where do you put Marino?!?

Marino would be number 3 for me

[ROYC75]

Joe was and still is the best, hands down. Period ! Manning has a ways to go.

[KCbroncoHATER]

No disrespect, but Eldonk wasn't better than Bradshaw and the facts prove it.

Who knows how many super bowls he could have won if he had played four more seasons like Eldonk did.