So what do we get for Jonesy?
 

Man, the more I look at the cap numbers and our cache of picks as well as the areas in which we need to improve our talent level...the more I just think we kind of HAVE to tag and trade Jones and let Watkins go as well.

I don't think we get a Khalil Mack haul, but I've seen a mid #2 floated as well. I think that's horseshit.

What do you think we get in a tag-and-trade scenario for Jones?

What (if any) compensation do you think we'd receive for Watkins?

Colts need a 3 technique that can pass rush, maybe their first pick in the second, #34.

I don't think so.


This ain't Dee Ford.

I completely understand that, I'm just having a hard time trying to find a suitable trade partner.

I think a relevant comparison is the tag/trade deal we made with Seattle for Frank Clark. He cost us about 240 points in draft capital, using the Rich Hill chart.

If Jones and Clark get a similar valuation, then I think you can somewhat narrow down likely trading partners.

Based on need, division, draft capital, and salary cap, these teams make sense to me:

Seattle: pick 27 + 2021 third
Detroit: pick 32 + 67
Miami: pick 26 + 2021 third or fourth
Indy: pick 34 + 75

Of course, there are so many possible scenarios it's almost pointless to speculate but I wouldn't be surprised to see any of these. Seattle makes the most sense to me, because they're the closest to contending.

For Watkins, I just don't see a team giving up draft capital for the right to overpay Sammy for one year. The team trading for him will absorb a $14 million cap hit, which is expensive, but not insane. The question for a Sammy trade is whether or not there's a team out there that would prefer to get him on an expensive one-year deal VS getting him on a cheaper long-term deal. He's an elite WR2 with an injury history that is getting cut unless rescued by a trade. That's going to push his value down.

We're not getting anything substantial in a Sammy Watkins trade.

I really want two picks in this draft for Jones. Detroits #35 and #67 would be ideal.

1. You send Jones to the NFC, to a team not named the Seahawks, because I don't want to face him in the Super Bowl either.

2. At #35 you can get his replacement or fill in another major need.

3.AT #67 you can get another nice player whether its a WR or offensive linemen.

Sign me up

I don’t see the Lions wanting to pay money to both Jones and Trey Flowers.

Plus they’re dealing with their own contract issues with Slay.

Interesting question.

Would you trade Chris Jones for Darius Slay?

You’d have to pay Slay, who said he wants to be the highest paid CB, to a new deal. But the highest paid CB is only getting $75 million right now.

No I don’t think this has a .00001% chance of happening....but it’s the offseason.

If you have the money to pay a dude, just pay Jones. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Agreed.

If I’m moving on from Jones, it’s cause I plan on replacing him with 3-4 players.

I haven't seen anyone mention where Jones would actually sign a long term deal. He is from Mississippi. I would assume he would want another chance at a SB.

Am I the only one that thinks Jones stays here and plays on a franchise tag deal for a year? They can structure Mahomes' new contract in a cap friendly manner the first year or two and ensure that Jones at least plays on a tag number. I only say that because I don't think anyone is willing to deal us what Jones is worth, and I don't think Veach is going to allow himself to take it in the shorts with some bullshit 2 and a 5 type of offer....

I’m not even sure what your post means.

Are you saying if he was traded, he wouldn’t want to sign a long term deal because he’d want to become a Chief again?

If so, that’s crazy. He has a chance to set his family up for generations. He signs as soon as it makes sense, Chiefs or elsewhere.

That said, he’s made it known he wants to be a Chief for life.

Really damn, everyone is talking about what team we are going to trade Chris Jones to, for the picks that are being thrown around he is going to have to agree to a contract. So he I see going to have to want to play for that team.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk

I hope Chiefs can keep Chris Jones.

The number of teams that we could trade him to for a 2020 1st round pick is pretty limited.

Teams that have early picks in draft are going to want to use the pick for QB or franchise player at a lower cap charge.

Several teams really don't have the cap space to trade and pay Chris Jones.

If the Chiefs were willing to take a 2nd round pick in 2020 and a 1st round pick in 2021, the market for Chris Jones would greatly expand.

You’re trading him to a team that is willing to pay him big money. How many guys have been tagged and traded for high picks and then not signed that new contract? None that I remember.

We would be excited if the Chiefs made this trade and brought in a guy like Jones to anchor the middle of the D line. I would make him play on the tag another year before giving him away. Jones gives us a better chance at repeating as champs.

Right because the team works out a contract before the trade happens. Not sure why Jones would want to go to the Lions or teams like that. Horrible weather and never win anything.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk

I can think of a hundred million reasons why.

Tag cost will be big, and you can't work any of that cap magic by using signing bonuses etc, can't see him just playing a year on the tag, that would suck for the Chiefs.

Detroit doesn't have 32. They have 35. And I don't think that I would let Jones go for anything that doesn't include a first this year. Even a high second. I would take their first for him. But I doubt that they would give up that high of a pick.

Value of the first round pick is the 5th year option, completely agree that’s a requirement if trading Jones is the route we take.

Anything less than a mid first and a mid third I would say figure out a way to resign him.

I kind of went through and looked at the teams I felt might have the cap space or draft requirements and made notes and have highlighted here the teams I think would be in the running. I think Jones commands a 1st and 3rd in total compensation with one pick needing to come this year.

Miami - 89.3 cap space, loads of picks with extra 2 1sts, probable comps 4th and 7th. No notable free agents other than OC Evan Boehm, likely to let Talib walk

Indianapolis - 86.2 cap space. Have all primary draft slots plus extra 2nd round in range, need to re-sign LT Anthony Castonzo, replace/re-sign ER Jabaal Sheard

Buffalo - 82.1 cap space Have all primary draft slots in round range, only notable FA is LG Quinton Spain

Tampa Bay - 79.9 cap space. Have all primary draft slots in round range. Probable 4th round comp. Should replace Ndamukong Suh, Need to re-sign ER Shaq Barrett, QB Jameis Winston, RT Demar Dotson, ER Carl Nassib

Dallas - 77.3 cap space. Have all primary draft slots in range and probable 5th round comp but probably won't be an option, too many re-signs with ER Robert Quinn, WR Amari Cooper, WR Randall Cobb, LB Sean Lee, DE Michael Bennett, CB Byron Jones, DT Maliek Collins, QB Dak Prescott

Houston - 64.3 cap space. No 1st or 3rd round picks hurts possibility but have probable 3rd round comp plus two 7th comps. Need to re-sign DT DJ Reader, CB Bradley Roby

Cleveland - 61.9 cap space. Have all primary draft picks in range plus extra 3rd. Only notable free agent is ILB Joe Schobert depending on what they think of LT Greg Robinson

New York G - 61.9 cap space. No 3rd round pick. Probable comp in 3rd and 2 7ths. Depends on DT Leonard Williams, but trading for Jones would probably put Williams on the market, other notables are ER Markus Golden, RT Mike Remmers, LB David Mayo, OC Jon Halapio (RFA)

Washington - 52.9 cap space. No 2nd round pick, probable 4th round comp. Tight squeeze and depends on how they feel about the QB position in all likelihood but owner willing to take chances, notable free agents are QB Case Keenum, RG Brandon Scherff, LG Ereck Flowers, LT Donald Penn, LB Jon Bostic

Seattle - 51.6 cap space. Extra 2nd round pick but no 3rd. Probable comps in 3rd, 4th, and 6th. Probably have too many holes from free agency, but you never know how they want to attack it and have proven that in the past, notable free agents are DE Jadeveon Clowney, DE Ezekiel Ansah, LB Mychal Kendricks, LG Mike Iupati, RT Germain Ifedi, DE Quinton Jefferson, DT Jarran Reed, OC Joey Hunt (RFA)

Tennessee - 50.4 cap space. Have all primary draft picks in range but not 4th. Too big of playoff implications plus they have to re-sign huge players this year in Conkline, Tannehill, Henry, and Ryan, all notables are CB Logan Ryan, RT Jack Conklin, QB Ryan Tannehill, QB Marcus Mariota, ER Kamalei Correa, CB Tremaine Brock, RB Derrick Henry, TE MyCole Pruitt, WR Tajae Sharpe

New York J - 49.6 cap space. Have all primary picks in range plus extra 3rd. Going to eat up some space with a few of their FAs this year, but could work it depending on choices, notables are LT Kelvin Beachum, WR Robby Anderson, ER Jordan Jenkins, CB Brian Poole, LB Neville Hewitt, LG Alex Lewis, RT Brandon Shell, LB James Burgess

Detroit - 45.9 cap space. Have all primary picks in range plus 2 extra 5ths. Would make alot of sense in NFC and would have the space given their notable free agents are CB Rashaan Melvin, DT A'Shawn Robinson, S Tavon Wilson, OG/C Graham Glasgow

Cincinnati - 44.9 cap space. Have all primary picks in range and can certainly make it work with choices on notable free agents WR AJ Green, CB Darqueze Dennard, TE Tyler Eifert, LB Nick Vigil, DT Andrew Billings, DT Josh Tupou (RFA)

Philadelphia - 44.8 cap space. Have all primary picks in range plus extra 5th. Probable 2 4th round comps. Doable but would have to make choices in FA with notable free agents LT Jason Peters, S Rodney McLeod, WR Nelson Agholar, CB Jalen Mills. Already cut LB Nigel Bradham and Ronald Darby void.

New England - 41.6 cap space. No 2nd or 5th round picks. Probable comps 2 3rds and 2 6ths. No way they can afford it with the free agents they have unless Bill lets everyone walk, notable free agents QB Tom Brady, CB Devin McCourty, LB Kyle Van Noy, WR Phillip Dorsett, LB Jamie Collins, DT Danny Shelton,, LT Marshall Newhouse, LG Joe Thuney, OC Ted Karras, DT Adam Butler (RFA)

Arizona - 39.7 cap space. All primary picks in range but no 5th. Already signed a couple big free agents and have the money, notable free agents are DE Rodney Gunter, OC AQ Shipley, RB Kenyan Dranke, WR Damiere Byrd

Carolina - 32.0 cap space. All primary picks in range. They might be blowing everything up over there so who knows? Notable free agents are DE Gerald McCoy, ER Mario Addison, LG Daryl Williams, ER Bruce Irvin, CB Ross Cockrell, S Tre Boston, DE Vernon Butler, CB James Bradberry, LG Greg Van Roten

Miami, Indy and Seattle are the probably the top 3 logical spots.

Would Miami want to trade for Jones after the whole Suh bullshit they dealt with?

Miami would be getting Jones in his prime years, Suh was 28 when he signed that deal with Miami, and he had other issues.

When you have three first round picks, two picks in the 2nd round, and probably two picks in the third, its not always best to use all of them. Especially in the first round when in four years you have a decision on whether to use the 5th year options.

So giving up a first and 3rd for Jones makes a ton of sense for a team like Miami with a defensive coach. They get a guy who they build that defense around and can be a face of that franchise. They still have a ton of draft capital to invest.

The Dolphins absolutely make a boatload of sense and should be candidate #1.

Adding Jones to bookend opposite Christian Wilkins will give them a strong 3-man front that can penetrate. Go after a pass rusher on the outside and that instantly transforms that defense. Go get a QB in the draft and you're well on your way.

So do you think we could get picks 18 & 70 for Jones, or could we get 26 and 56?

I'd be down for either.

And you're right, you add Jones to that defense and its a top 15 unit. And their entire roster isn't that bad really. If NE tanks they could be a playoff team with a legit QB.

My guess is a 1st and a 3rd. I’d be ecstatic to get a 1st and a 2nd.

I don't agree. Watkins contact lends itself to a long term extension with conversion of the 14 million to signing bonus and therefore prorated over the contract.

While I tend to agree, I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. Sammy is 26, still in his prime, and you have to realize that AJ Green is going to be asking for 15M a season. I think a WR team like the Packers. They could rent him for a year or get him in and extend him to make the contract more friendly. He's exactly what Rogers needs. but probably a pipe dream.

I tend to think 1-26 and 3-68

Man I just hate trading the guy. I think he's the best most important piece on the defense.

I don’t think we are trading him with the new CBA. Instead of $10 million average, you can count on a $15-17 million increase with more overall games, gambling and more international games.

Sign him now. Have 2020 be his first year low cap hit and have 1 season (2021) be with a moderately high cap hit.

That extra $5-7 million increase starting in Spring 2022 will help us big time.

Or, will he want $25m per because of the new CBA?

Nobody WANTS to.


It just may be necessary.

I think a Frank Clark deal is completely reasonable for Jones. Interior passrush may very well be the 2nd most important thing an NFL team needs.

A 1st this year and a 2nd next year, I anticipate.

I'd rather trim the fat and go cheap and young elsewhere. He's an elite player and a corner stone of the defense.

Detroit is the best trade partner for Stone Cold.

Bullshit

We can afford the tag cost next year after we cut Sammy, which we will. $16.8M. However, I don't see Jones playing on a 1 year contract because it's too risky. If he gets hurt, it will jeopardize his chances at a 5 year deal.

The Dolphins makes a ton of sense.

Guy on Twitter who covers the Colts says the Colts would give up 34th & 44th picks for him.

I've been circling around that thought for a couple of weeks now.

If that's on the table, you take it. There's a lot of solid talent through about pick 60 in this draft. If you get that deal made you have 4 picks in the top 63 selections. You can double-dip CB, find a versatile LBer and snag a WR in a very deep WR class.

I cite CB specifically because historically the production drop-offs for CBs is MASSIVE through the 1st and 2nd rounds. By the time you get to the 3rd round, you might as well wait for the 5th. They have steeper yield curves in the 1st and 2nd rounds than even QBs do. So if you can get a couple of CBs in the first round or 2, you're well ahead of the game in terms of projecting long-term success there. With the understanding that the Raiders and Broncos are going to be doubling down on building high-powered offenses to hang with Mahomes, you NEED to get that DB situation ironed out long-term. If you can get 2 CBs in a fairly deep CB draft, you're in amazing shape going forward.

Edge rushers, OTs and WRs show similar curves, if not as severe. In this WR class, using one of those 2nds on a WR could also be a big-time value play.


I've been awfully big on the idea of Murray in the 1st but man - LBs have yielded such scattershot returns out of the late 1st of late. Their curves are essentially flat; almost like RBs. The odds of hitting on a conventional off-ball LBer in the first round is only nominally better than on the third day.

Somone like Baun is technically a LB but not really used strictly in that sense so I think he could be compared to edge guys who tend to track more truly with their draft position.

So lets say you make that deal - this is a SUPER realistic draft scenario:

32: Baun, LB - Wisc.
34: Gladney, CB - TCU
44: Aiyuk, WR - ASU
63: Damon Arnette, CB - OSU

And yeah, you might have to game that a little and bump Gladney/Aiyuk with the hopes that Baun's most likely to fall to 44. Or maybe you like Pride at 63 more than Arnette or really like Terrell at CB and take him at 44 to change what WRs you're looking at at 63, but none of that is crazy-talk. You end up in a nice place either way. And with the cap space you've freed up you can go see what Javon Hargrave is going for or dabble somewhere else in an EXTREMELY deep free agent interior DL class. The rest goes into the kind of depth that a good team really needs to have around.

As for the Colts, they have a ton of cap space and aren't far from being able to win that division at all. They'll still have their first that they'll almost certainly use on a new QB who will allow them to maintain long-term cap flexibility. They can justify paying for him because of their cap space and pursuing him because of their ability to contend for the division as quickly as next year. And while the draft capital they would surrender would hurt, it would be palatable since they don't lose their 1st and can still go get a QBOTF if they see one they like (Fromm seems likely; Love not impossible).

This is a deal I just keep coming back to because man does it make a TON of sense for all side, including Chris Jones.

If this deal is on the table, you take it. And in the end all sides will benefit, IMO.

Would you take that Colts offer over a 1st this year and a 3rd next year?

Without question.

Your 1st is, what, Miami's? So 26? 26 and a 3rd next year - lets give it the value of a 4th this year - lets say 106.

Would I rather have 26 and 106 or 34 and 44?

That really a question worth asking?

Unless some team out there is willing to give up a pick in the top 15, you're going to have a really hard time beating the 34 and 44. That's a monster haul that also pairs really nicely with our needs and this particular draft. Even if Miami were willing to give up 18 and a 3rd next year, I'd think really hard before I passed on 34 and 44 for that deal. That's just a damn nice place to be in this draft. Especially for a team like ours that may be gravitating (necessarily so) to a bit of a stars/scrubs model. 2 high 2nds is in many ways more valuable to the Chiefs because of the difficulties they'll have in stacking depth with 5 or 6 big ticket items on their cap every year.

How about this off the wall trade......

Chris Jones to the Lions for Darius Slay and their 2.

I wouldn't be excited about trading him to the Colts. You'd potentially have to play him damn near every year.

Just keep him.

You're trading him because of financial reasons. Why trade him and take on an older expensive player?

Slay wants to be the highest paid CB.....so you aren’t getting out of having to spend the money.

**** that. Dude is close to 30 and need a new deal.

It's a high 2...and he's cheaper than Jones. This way you fill a need with a player and get a pick high enough to fill another.

Man, I just keep going back and forth on re-signing/trading Jones. I truly don't know what the right move is.

All I can say is thank God we won the SB.

I like the return value, but yeesh those picks would leave us with Frank Clark, Tanoh for 1 more year and...?...an aging Okafor and Speaks?

I mean if we could keep Fuller and Ogbah and get that haul? Damn. Yeah I wouldn’t be mad at that at all. I do think we keep Chris, but I would not bitch at that return if Veach can pull that off.

One thing to keep in mind though. I’ve read rumors that Ballard is going to go hard after Shelby Harris, who is not Chris Jones, but he is good. I don’t see Ballard parting with draft picks like this when the market is strong at interior rush and he can pay a guy like Harris without giving up compensation.

I wouldn't do it, but Brett Veach has made that exact same trade with Alex Smith.

“Same exact”?

How is Slay, who is almost 30 and needs a new contract, the same as Fuller who was a young ascending player on a rookie deal?

Most 2nd contracts aren’t good deals for the team.

Tag & Trade

Colts have picks 34 & 44.
Lets make a deal.

How far up is a reasonable area that we could move up to if we combo’d Jones with 32? Would that be enough to move up to 13? I think it makes sense for both sides and KC could pull the trigger on someone like Ruggs that would really bring another level to this offense.

That kind of move doesn't make sense I think, Chiefs only have 5 picks and so if they traded Jones not increasing the number of picks would be a bad move.

Chiefs have plenty of holes, need depth rather than one superstar, which is why trading Jones is a good idea.

Trading Jones and our 1st round pick for a third WR? **** that.

Ruggs is good but that makes our team way worse. You’re trading Jones to get cost controlled guys at other positions that are needed.

This! Trading Jones to the Colts would help build up their defense to beat us in a possible playoff match. That would be really dumb. :doh!:

Trade Jones and #32 to Miami for #18, #39, #70, and #185. That's a value of 1077 net points for the Chiefs based on the Drafttek trade chart. Miami has 14 picks. I don't see them being able to assimilate that many picks into their 2020 roster. This trade gets them a top DL in his prime to pair with last years first round pick, DL Christian Wilkins, and still have 3 first rounders and 8 other picks. The Chiefs get much needed draft capital and cap space.

Exactly. The #1 thing the Chiefs need are picks. We have to keep the roster primed with young, affordable players on rookie deals to balance off our big contract players.

I'd be down for that, not sure if Miami would go for it though.

This is a really creative idea, and I think Miami's third 1st rounder (what, #23) also would work in this scenario.

You'd feel REALLY good about having a shot at Yetur Gross-Matos at either of those picks and might even move high enough to nab CJ Henderson or Kristian Fulton. And you add a BUNCH of picks you can use for depth (extra second and extra third would be HUGE).

Possessing two of the top 3 fastest players in the league at WR with Mahomes isn’t making a team worse. It’s eliminating any potential defense against this offense. He wouldn’t be a WR3, he’d take Sammys place and with his cap number coming a rookie contract would allow the team to continue to build throughout the roster with financial flexibility, especially with Jones contract gone.

This isn’t just a speed guy, he had one of the lowest drop rates in the country. I understand not wanting to draft a WR high but overall he brings up the teams ceiling higher than anyone else due to their being another player that absolutely requires deep safety help, especially with Pat throwing the ball. With Reek also out there, you essentially put the defense in a spot to dedicate 4 defenders to contain the last level against two deep threats and allows Kelce/RBs to eat in the shallow/intermediate levels with Hardman essentially being a chess piece throughout the offense.

Just don’t see a late first CB or LB making that type of difference personally. I understand wanting to trade down for more assets but at the end of the day, Veach can find the roster fillers and I think it’s best to go for the blue-chip game changers in the 1st round.

Probably 3rd receiver rather than 3rd wide receiver is more accurate. Jones and a first round pick to get a 3rd target for Mahomes is literally too much to pay.

You're basically building the 2018 Chiefs there by neglecting the defense and hoping you can win shootouts, rather than trying to keep the 2019 improved defense Chiefs that won the whole damn thing.

Hardman and Watkins were already genuine deep threats to go along with Tyreek this last year, I don't think having a slightly faster guy instead of Watkins improves the team as much as you think.

Plus if Mahomes doesn't get time in the pocket, then it doesn't matter how many deep threats you have. And if you give Andy and Patrick time in the pocket, they don't need to have the fastest players in the NFL to beat you.

Plus, there isn't as much financial flexibility as you think if you do this. You cut Sammy and trade Jones and now you start with about $27m to work with, but you need a pass rushing DT, two free agent corners, improvements at linebacker, and to improve the Oline, with probably no help from the draft because you took a 3rd target for the offense, and with a Mahomes extension possibly bumping his cap hit this year.

Trade Jones to the Colts straight up for Quinton Nelson? Lol