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-   -   Football The NFLPA says injury rates are significantly higher on artificial turf than on grass (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=348438)

wazu 04-20-2023 11:22 AM

The NFLPA says injury rates are significantly higher on artificial turf than on grass
 
A pretty bad look for the NFL. Glad Arrowhead has a grass field. Seems like a big key to our success this past half-decade has been good fortune on the injury front. I can't imagine a team making the conscious decision to opt for the "more injuries" approach.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...grass-in-2022/

Spoiler!

displacedinMN 04-20-2023 11:59 AM

exception to the rule-Arizona


in other news-water is wet

htismaqe 04-20-2023 12:01 PM

Artificial turf needs to be banned. It's a blight on the sport.

Chief Pagan 04-20-2023 12:46 PM

So is this because the surface is harder when a player lands on it?

Or because the surface provides a better grip for footwear and instead of the foot losing grip a knee blows out?

Or both?

I've always wondered whether on indoor artificial turf fields if you restricted the sort of cleats players could wear, so that at some point their foot would slip instead of their knee blowing out, would that improve player safety?

Chief Pagan 04-20-2023 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 16910001)
Artificial turf needs to be banned. It's a blight on the sport.

And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Hydrae 04-20-2023 12:50 PM

All good questions. I have no idea. I look forward to the discussion though.

htismaqe 04-20-2023 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910127)
And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Great question but the answer should never be "well, we don't care if more players get injured".

Megatron96 04-20-2023 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910125)
So is this because the surface is harder when a player lands on it?

Or because the surface provides a better grip for footwear and instead of the foot losing grip a knee blows out?

Or both?

I've always wondered whether on indoor artificial turf fields if you restricted the sort of cleats players could wear, so that at some point their foot would slip instead of their knee blowing out, would that improve player safety?

Both. The harder surface invites more injuries when players fall/land on it, especially when another player is draped over another when they hit the ground, or if player 1 throws player 2 to the ground.

The faster surface doesn't give, so when a player cuts, pretty much all the torque concentrates in the ankle/knee or particularly when a defender grabs a ball-carrier and adds their momentum/weight to those joints, and eventually the soft tissues have to tear.

O.city 04-20-2023 12:54 PM

It's the actual type of turf used I believe they found.

There are different ones that are better.

wazu 04-20-2023 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910127)
And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Probably just grandfather them in. Everybody else needs to make the switch. It would at least greatly reduce the overall number of games being played on artificial turf.

They won't do it though. Titans are in process of replacing grass with turf right now. Guess they felt that they could benefit from having fewer healthy players on game day.

wazu 04-20-2023 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16910141)
It's the actual type of turf used I believe they found.

There are different ones that are better.

Yeah, you'd think they could engineer something that was optimal and even better than grass. Ultimately though grass can tear and rip and it just grows back. Anything artificial has to be tough enough to not do that. Maybe that's just something that can't be overcome.

BleedingRed 04-20-2023 01:00 PM

Well considering Turf varies widely I don't know how to could make that argument.

ChiefsCountry 04-20-2023 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 16910001)
Artificial turf needs to be banned. It's a blight on the sport.

Every high school is going to it.

htismaqe 04-20-2023 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 16910176)
Every high school is going to it.

Yep. It's much, much cheaper to maintain. And let's face it, HS players getting injured isn't top of mind for most people.

The NFL, and the global stage it occupies, is a whole different ballgame. They can't afford to have their stars sidelined every year due to injuries.

Megatron96 04-20-2023 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BleedingRed (Post 16910158)
Well considering Turf varies widely I don't know how to could make that argument.

I bet the NFLPA is only interested in turf installed at NFL stadiums. I also bet that they paid for a study run by actual professionals.

Megatron96 04-20-2023 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 16910157)
Yeah, you'd think they could engineer something that was optimal and even better than grass. Ultimately though grass can tear and rip and it just grows back. Anything artificial has to be tough enough to not do that. Maybe that's just something that can't be overcome.

Most of the time Nature is a much better engineer than Man.

BleedingRed 04-20-2023 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16910181)
I bet the NFLPA is only interested in turf installed at NFL stadiums. I also bet that they paid for a study run by actual professionals.

I also bet they paid for a specific outcome to that study as well

Megatron96 04-20-2023 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BleedingRed (Post 16910186)
I also bet they paid for a specific outcome to that study as well

Maybe. Maybe not. I will bet that the NFLPA would much rather play on the safer surface, since that's how they're all going to get paid the most, if more of them can actually play instead of getting injured.

Turf has always been more dangerous than grass. Maybe there's some technological advancement that came along in the last few years, but since the first turf field hosted a game, turf has always caused more injuries than natural grass, for the reasons stated above. It makes you a bit faster, allows players to cut faster, and generally be more athletic, but it comes at the cost of more soft tissue injuries.

BWillie 04-20-2023 02:10 PM

This is a slippery slope imo. Of course artificial turf is a little more injury prone. But what also causes probably even more injuries? A 17th game. Thursday Night football where players are able to get little rest. Playing games in subzero temps. Using existing helmets compared to more cumbersome ones they could opt to use.

MIAdragon 04-20-2023 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910127)
And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Indoor grow houses seem to do ok. I’m sure the trillion dollar NFL could come up with something that works.

Iowanian 04-20-2023 02:50 PM

I don't enjoy watching turf games. I want to see grass and mudd in helmets and on jerseys.

That said, they should go further and look at WHERE the most injuries are happening. Are there 2-3 stadiums where most of the knee injuries happen? Is it a certain style of turf or field turf?

That's something that SHOULD be done and the league should require a change if it's the case.

In58men 04-20-2023 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910127)
And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Raiders have real grass, they roll it outside for sunlight.

wazu 04-20-2023 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian (Post 16910379)
I don't enjoy watching turf games. I want to see grass and mudd in helmets and on jerseys.

That said, they should go further and look at WHERE the most injuries are happening. Are there 2-3 stadiums where most of the knee injuries happen? Is it a certain style of turf or field turf?

That's something that SHOULD be done and the league should require a change if it's the case.

Agree here. This is really something that should be done for more than just surfaces. With the wealth of resources the NFL has, and the massive, multi-million dollar investments they make in their players there should be a powerful analytics-driven system to isolate where the problems are with player safety and address those which can be improved.

notorious 04-20-2023 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 16910180)
Yep. It's much, much cheaper to maintain. And let's face it, HS players getting injured isn't top of mind for most people.

The NFL, and the global stage it occupies, is a whole different ballgame. They can't afford to have their stars sidelined every year due to injuries.

We did a study whether to switch to artificial turf or keep grass.

Grass was far cheaper with with the 4 month season we play and we live in a desert.

Now, if you have a stadium that gets pounded over and over with activities other than football turf will hold up better during the year.

Mr_Tomahawk 04-20-2023 03:02 PM

As someone who designs stadiums and fields....synthetic turf isn't going anywhere.

The crumb rubber and all artificial infills will be gone in the next 10 years and replaced with organic infills. The European Union has banned them in new fields. That is the only thing that will be going away....

notorious 04-20-2023 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Tomahawk (Post 16910401)
As someone who designs stadiums and fields....synthetic turf isn't going anywhere.

The crumb rubber and all artificial infills will be gone in the next 10 years and replaced with organic infills. The European Union has banned them in new fields. That is the only thing that will be going away....

Do you find my post above to be correct?

We figured on 40-50k/ year average for artificial turf (considering 10 years at 500k per cycle).

Mr_Tomahawk 04-20-2023 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notorious (Post 16910408)
Do you find my post above to be correct?

We figured on 40-50k/ year average for artificial turf (considering 10 years at 500k per cycle).

Yes.

The reason why natural turf is no longer viable is because of the durability as you pointed out.

Stadiums these days are very seldom used just for one sports. The athletic surfaces get used daily...multiple times a day and natural turf cannot withstand this sort of use.

Heavy use of the natural turf field would result in compaction of the duff layer and subgrade making gmax and HIC values difficult to achieve on game day.

Mr_Tomahawk 04-20-2023 03:11 PM

Many injuries on synthetic turf fields are a result of the field crews adding too much infill resulting in a soft field. Soft fields lead to lower body injuries. This is what was happening 5 or so years ago in New England when like 5 players blew out their knees on one of their practice fields. It was later found their practice field had a shock pad AND crumb rubber which results in a spongy field.

As mentioned, the crumb rubber is being replace with organic infills which in turn require a shock pad to meet HIC requirements.

New England used both...because they didnt know what they were doing.

wazu 04-20-2023 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Tomahawk (Post 16910413)
Yes.

The reason why natural turf is no longer viable is because of the durability as you pointed out.

Stadiums these days are very seldom used just for one sports. The athletic surfaces get used daily...multiple times a day and natural turf cannot withstand this sort of use.

Heavy use of the natural turf field would result in compaction of the duff layer and subgrade making gmax and HIC values difficult to achieve on game day.

Seems like the Chiefs do okay with it.

Megatron96 04-20-2023 03:11 PM

Meh, just have two sets of grass. One just for NFL football, and the other for everything else. Problem solved. Turf sucks.

Mr_Tomahawk 04-20-2023 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 16910420)
Seems like the Chiefs do okay with it.

And they practice daily on a synthetic surface.

chiefzilla1501 04-20-2023 03:30 PM

There also needs to be consequences for rolling out shitty grass fields. Asm global maintains the turf for both Arizona and Chicago and it’s more than a little interesting that the chiefs played on 3 of the shittiest fields imaginable (2x in Arizona, once in Chicago preseason) from the same provider

Hound333 04-20-2023 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 16910180)
Yep. It's much, much cheaper to maintain. And let's face it, HS players getting injured isn't top of mind for most people.

The NFL, and the global stage it occupies, is a whole different ballgame. They can't afford to have their stars sidelined every year due to injuries.

I think the cost is close to the same according to the buildings and grounds people at the HS I work for. The main reason I don't see them going away from HS is that when its grass, you can't use the field except for the 4-5 home games a year. They wouldn't even let the middle school use the field for games. Had to look good on Friday or the public would email complaints all Fall.

Now its used pretty much everyday.

Chief Pagan 04-20-2023 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by In58men (Post 16910388)
Raiders have real grass, they roll it outside for sunlight.

A new indoor stadium can be built for a roll out field.

But existing indoor stadiums won't have that option.

And I wonder if roll out fields work as well in cold climates?

Megatron96 04-20-2023 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910512)
A new indoor stadium can be built for a roll out field.

But existing indoor stadiums won't have that option.

And I wonder if roll out fields work as well in cold climates?

Meh, pretty sure you can drive a car/truck/ambulance into every stadium in the league, so you can wheel in pallets of sod or however they divide up the field for transport.

displacedinMN 04-20-2023 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hound333 (Post 16910489)
I think the cost is close to the same according to the buildings and grounds people at the HS I work for. The main reason I don't see them going away from HS is that when its grass, you can't use the field except for the 4-5 home games a year. They wouldn't even let the middle school use the field for games. Had to look good on Friday or the public would email complaints all Fall.

Now its used pretty much everyday.

I was told-the cost to water, maintain, fertilize, mow, cover....is about the same as turf.

Plus, one football game on a wet field ruins grass for the other teams and the rest of the season. Only need one field for soccer, lacrosse, all JV and Varsity sports.

Rain Man 04-20-2023 05:44 PM

I'm surprised that grass isn't related to more injuries since Nick Bolton and Willie Gay play most of their games on grass.

notorious 04-20-2023 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Tomahawk (Post 16910418)
Many injuries on synthetic turf fields are a result of the field crews adding too much infill resulting in a soft field. Soft fields lead to lower body injuries. This is what was happening 5 or so years ago in New England when like 5 players blew out their knees on one of their practice fields. It was later found their practice field had a shock pad AND crumb rubber which results in a spongy field.

As mentioned, the crumb rubber is being replace with organic infills which in turn require a shock pad to meet HIC requirements.

New England used both...because they didnt know what they were doing.

Whoa.

You'd figure that softer would be a little better, but yikes.

Bump 04-20-2023 05:59 PM

if the NFL cared like they claim to, they would force proper fields and ban this shit that players get injured on way more often. They are a mega billion dollar business, there's no excuse.

Titty Meat 04-20-2023 06:01 PM

The NFL's solution?


More Thursday night games!

Raiderhater 04-20-2023 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910127)
And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Ban those too. Play the game outside like it is supposed to be played.

kccrow 04-20-2023 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910125)
So is this because the surface is harder when a player lands on it?

Or because the surface provides a better grip for footwear and instead of the foot losing grip a knee blows out?

Or both?

I've always wondered whether on indoor artificial turf fields if you restricted the sort of cleats players could wear, so that at some point their foot would slip instead of their knee blowing out, would that improve player safety?

Personal experience is that field turf is pretty close to landing on grass but the grip is better and that's not always a good thing. It also ****ing SUCKS ASS when it's hot. I played games on that shit when it was 90-95 and the 1 ft above the turf was reading 130-140 degrees. Shit is HOT. The little rubber granules get in your eyes and shit too and sting like a mother****er. Field turf is much more forgiving than straight-up astro turf though. That shit sucks. Nothing like playing on a rug stretched over concrete. You stick to that shit so bad and then the strawberries from rug burn is amazing good fun. Hate that shit with all that I am.

Jewish Rabbi 04-20-2023 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow (Post 16910597)
Personal experience is that field turf is pretty close to landing on grass but the grip is better and that's not always a good thing. It also ****ing SUCKS ASS when it's hot. I played games on that shit when it was 90-95 and the 1 ft above the turf was reading 130-140 degrees. Shit is HOT. The little rubber granules get in your eyes and shit too and sting like a mother****er. Field turf is much more forgiving than straight-up astro turf though. That shit sucks. Nothing like playing on a rug stretched over concrete. You stick to that shit so bad and then the strawberries from rug burn is amazing good fun. Hate that shit with all that I am.

BRC Jr has just solved the issue with a personal anecdote, go ahead and lock this one up mods.

BleedingRed 04-20-2023 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 16910618)
BRC Jr has just solved the issue with a personal anecdote, go ahead and lock this one up mods.

HAUL HIM AWAY

kccrow 04-20-2023 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi (Post 16910618)
BRC Jr has just solved the issue with a personal anecdote, go ahead and lock this one up mods.

Sucks being the clueless ****, doesn't it?

You have no way to contribute aside from making tasteless jokes nobody finds amusing except for the other reeruns on this board.

I won't miss you when I'm gone cupcake, you can take comfort in that.

Jewish Rabbi 04-20-2023 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow (Post 16910625)
Sucks being the clueless ****, doesn't it?

You have no way to contribute aside from making tasteless jokes nobody finds amusing except for the other reeruns on this board.

I won't miss you when I'm gone cupcake, you can take comfort in that.

Okay

kstater 04-20-2023 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow (Post 16910625)
Sucks being the clueless ****, doesn't it?



You have no way to contribute aside from making tasteless jokes nobody finds amusing except for the other reeruns on this board.



I won't miss you when I'm gone cupcake, you can take comfort in that.

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...2d2b014cde.jpg

Sent from my SM-S906U1 using Tapatalk

Titty Meat 04-20-2023 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow (Post 16910625)
Sucks being the clueless ****, doesn't it?

You have no way to contribute aside from making tasteless jokes nobody finds amusing except for the other reeruns on this board.

I won't miss you when I'm gone cupcake, you can take comfort in that.

Why are you leaving?

Rainbarrel 04-20-2023 07:17 PM

They've been growing grass under artificial lighting for decades

notorious 04-20-2023 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 16910636)
Why are you leaving?

Heading to the George Brett Statue.


Pretty obvious.

Hydrae 04-20-2023 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16910514)
Meh, pretty sure you can drive a car/truck/ambulance into every stadium in the league, so you can wheel in pallets of sod or however they divide up the field for transport.

I don't know how they do it in Vegas but for the Cardinals stadium, the whole field rolls out as one. No piecing or hand moving at all.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EUs70OZnqpc" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Chiefshrink 04-20-2023 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16910183)
Most of the time Nature God is a much better engineer than Man.

FYP ;)

Chief Pagan 04-20-2023 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow (Post 16910597)
Personal experience is that field turf is pretty close to landing on grass but the grip is better and that's not always a good thing. It also ****ing SUCKS ASS when it's hot. I played games on that shit when it was 90-95 and the 1 ft above the turf was reading 130-140 degrees. Shit is HOT. The little rubber granules get in your eyes and shit too and sting like a mother****er. Field turf is much more forgiving than straight-up astro turf though. That shit sucks. Nothing like playing on a rug stretched over concrete. You stick to that shit so bad and then the strawberries from rug burn is amazing good fun. Hate that shit with all that I am.

Right. But couldn't that be easily solved by restricting the type of cleat that could be worn?

That seems fairly straightforward if it would help protect knees.

Chiefshrink 04-20-2023 08:26 PM

You can't beat grass PERIOD You would think these owners would pay a little more in maintenance to protect their HUGE INVESTMENTS;)

BWillie 04-20-2023 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bump (Post 16910587)
if the NFL cared like they claim to, they would force proper fields and ban this shit that players get injured on way more often. They are a mega billion dollar business, there's no excuse.

If they cared like they claimed they would make it 2 weeks between games, play half as many games, ban tackling and people being able to run more than 5 mph.

cdcox 04-20-2023 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16910127)
And what do you do about indoor stadiums?

Ban them.

Stewie 12-21-2023 12:21 PM

Vikings changing artificial turfs, cite better injury data

EAGAN, Minn. -- U.S. Bank Stadium, the home of the Minnesota Vikings, will become the latest NFL facility to replace its playing surface with a version of artificial turf that rates better in injury data.

The Minnesota Sports Facilities Authority, which owns and operates the stadium, approved a $1.3 million bid for the project Thursday. It will replace the slit-film turf, which is associated with the highest rate of lower extremity noncontact injuries among the types of artificial turfs used in NFL stadiums, based on data compiled by the NFL and NFL Players Association's joint surfaces committee. In its place, the MSFA will install a monofilament version called Act Global Xtreme Turf DX.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...er-injury-data

BWillie 12-21-2023 12:50 PM

Not all artificial turf is the same and they have made advancements recently in artificial turf.

displacedinMN 12-21-2023 01:59 PM

MPLS article--prob ditto from above

Spoiler!

displacedinMN 12-21-2023 02:00 PM

also, think about how many High schools etc play on turf.

BWillie 12-21-2023 02:57 PM

I was at the xmas party thing they have at Arrowhead last week and you could see the grow lights on the field with wheels. Field all tarped off. Wonder how much the yearly maintenance costs for having real grass is

displacedinMN 12-21-2023 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie (Post 17292542)
I was at the xmas party thing they have at Arrowhead last week and you could see the grow lights on the field with wheels. Field all tarped off. Wonder how much the yearly maintenance costs for having real grass is

especially when it gets really cold

Eureka 12-21-2023 03:59 PM

Even this is better then turf.

https://www.mercurynews.com/wp-conte...17-2.jpg?w=620

displacedinMN 12-21-2023 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eureka (Post 17292634)

I wouldnt go that far.

siberian khatru 12-21-2023 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eureka (Post 17292634)

I can hear Charlie Jones calling that game.

PHOG 12-21-2023 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eureka (Post 17292634)

https://media0.giphy.com/media/NgdYA...=200.webp&ct=g

TribalElder 12-21-2023 05:29 PM

That piece of shit field in NY/New Jersey was behind a bunch of season ending injuries from achillies to acl's

ku_jhawk23 12-21-2023 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie (Post 17292542)
I was at the xmas party thing they have at Arrowhead last week and you could see the grow lights on the field with wheels. Field all tarped off. Wonder how much the yearly maintenance costs for having real grass is

With all of the costs of a person going to a game, the year over year profits of an nfl team, and billionaire owner.....i don't give a **** how much it costs them to take care of the grass.


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