PBS Vietnam War Documentary
 

Anybody catch the first episode last night? Interesting background on Ho Chi Mihn. I knew some of that back story, but not all of it. The French are total assholes. I can see why the Vietnamese people hated them. Actually, my French Teacher at Mizzou was a Vietnamese guy in a wheelchair who had fought for South Vietnam in the war. He was fluent in French because his father worked for the French in Saigon.

Next chapter is on tonight. One of the American Soldiers they talked to who was a Marine went to my High School (Van Horn) in Independence.

Missed it last night. Watching tonight.

Really looking forward to this as I've always been a bit fascinated with that war. And it's by Ken Burns. Is there any way to catch last nights episode somewhere?

There is a live video booth set up at MCPL Independence- If you are a Vet and have a story about the war- you can record it here and send it to KCPL.

You can watch them here if you've missed any episodes:

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/watch/

Most interesting part so far...............When Ho Che Ming took Power and declared a independent country in Vietnam. He wrote several Letters to Truman begging for USA support.

Basically saying They only wanted freedom to decide their own affairs, nothing to do with communism. Support us and we will be friends and trade partners. He never heard back. So he wrote another letter. No response. He wrote a total of 4 letters to Truman.

Truman never saw them. The CIA kept the letters and never told Truman of their existence.

What happened to those letters have they since been released? For someone who didnt want communism he sure did embrace it.

The Hamlet Program pissed off all the rural population. Farmers had to leave their land behind and go into these "protected hamlets." Also, there was a city-country split in the South Vietnamese people. The city people (Saigon) didn't understand the desires of the country people, and lots of the men out in the country joined up with the Viet Cong. The leadership in South Vietnam was completely corrupt, and they violated freedoms of religion and peaceful protest. The ARVN didn't want to fight for their own country. Just a total and complete cluster F. Kennedy was trying to stop WWIII over Cuba, and Vietnam took a back burner. Only until US Advisors started getting killed did the country start to notice what was going on there. It just snowballed out of control from there.

Words and Deeds. My Dad always said words sound pretty and impressive but its the deeds that matter. Documentarians and Historians are never short of the pretty words but seem to be long in stretching and bending the deeds to fit their purpose. Ken Burns is a master at this.

KC has a large Vietnamese population if you want the real story of the Vietcong and Ho Chi Mihn the children of these refugees are the source i'd seek. Where I work one of these refugee children is one of our electrical engineers now. He was a little boy when Saigon fell and was lucky to escape as his parents were caretakers of the US embassy grounds. His Parents migrated to South as they were a burden to his Grandparents farm in the North when the VC demanded so much of the rice at a unfair price if they even would pay. At the fall of the South his Grandparents Aunts and Uncles were sent away to concentration caps to be reprogrammed because of his parents working at US embassy. They all died 4 years later of disease so they were told no remains or burial place is given just people who disappeared. Wonder if old Ken documents those people.

A friend of mine was one of the Marines on the roof of the US Embassy in 1975 loading people onto helicopters. He was in a Recon company. He was on the next to last chopper off the roof, so he was literally one of the very last soldiers in country to get out.

You think Ken is anti-american biased? Or anti-American military?
I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious.

DVRing the series, but haven't watched yet.

Yeah I've been looking forward to this one for quite a while.

My wife mentioned it, and I caught part of it last night since Monday Night Football didn't sound exciting. I found the music scores to be kind of odd, and they didn't seem to match the video, and honestly I thought the flow of the episode was also kind of choppy. But there was some good information and learning, since I knew little about the pre-buildup period of American involvement.

Haven't started this yet, as it's available for streaming. But knowing that my preferences in order are;

Roosevelts - by a lot
Prohibition
Civil War
National Parks
Jazz
[didn't watch Baseball]

How would those knowledgeable rank this docu-series?

Sorry I missed this thread, gb... will be adding to it in-depth when I can

Upon half a second viewing of tonights episode, I can see Burns politics at play in the narrative... but theres just not enough time to do it justice tonight

Not the person you asked, but I think Ken would proudly admit to being a New Deal socialist and beyond nonracist to social justice antiracist [ie, equality of outcome advocate].

And he thinks that the parts of American history that aren't actively pursuing/progressing in those areas are universally 'dark times'

Watching Hal Moores interview after Ia Drang for the second time tonight doesnt get any easier... the 7th Cav outnumbered 7-1, and still he brought the majority of them through it

This short poem from an NVA is blunt and haunting as well

'The crab lies still on the chopping block, never knowing when the knife will fall'

What a senseless waist of lives. Watching this series just pisses me off. **** Kennedy and **** Johnson. I hope they're both rotting in hell.

The doc mentions discussion of the war has gone silent in recent years. Hadn't thought much about it, but it's true. Seems like the same conversation, with the same divisions carries on, now we just have a thousand proxy topics that survey the same basics.

Yeah, I had several family members who fought in that war. One still has shrapnel in him.

It was a different era. The majority of people in the USA were genuinely scared of communism becoming global. They viewed the threat on the same level as Nazis but the Nazi's have nuclear weapons.

Once the public saw on TV what we were doing to "protect" us from the threat. Saw the dead bodies coming back, the lies they were told about the war, our society changed for the better.

No. He was never a "true" communist. He was an opportunist, and played the game necessary to get Russian/Chinese support.

That war was just a terrible, terrible mistake from every possible point of view. Not just blood and treasure, but strategically and in every other way you can possibly think of. A terrible, terrible misjudgment by America's leaders at that point in time.

In Congressional testimony supporting Truman's firing of MacArthur, General Omar Bradley, then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, expressly (and famously) stated that MacArthur's inclination to go to war with China was "the wrong war, at the wrong place, at the wrong time, and with the wrong enemy".

It is completely lamentable that our leaders barely a generation later were incapable of applying that same logic. South Vietnam was NOT South Korea, and that entire war was massively misguided. The absolute and unquestionable proof of that can be found in just looking at Vietnam now. While hardly a paragon of democracy or human rights, it is certainly no threat to us, nor has it ever been. We went to war and, sadly, many lost their lives or were wounded for nothing.

I know, I was born in 62'. I think what pisses me off the most is how much getting reelected played in the decisions they made.

Something I didn't realize until I began watching this series.

The South Vietnamese Government being completely corrupt didn't help matters. We've had that same problem currently in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I was in grade school and junior high during the entire Vietnam Era. I had to register for the draft, but the war ended when I was a Freshman in High School. On our street, two brothers from a house up the block from mine were both drafted. Both came back wounded, ****ed up both physically and mentally. Both ended up being VA cases, I think both ended up being homeless dudes.

The line was really interesting where Westmoreland said, "We're killing them at a 10 to 1 ratio"," and the Senator replied, "The people don't care about the ten, they care about the one." Pretty astute, and it shows how things had changed since WWII. It was perhaps the first of the modern wars in terms of philosophy and strategy.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure "Moggie" is dead meat.

The music scores had a Social Network vibe, I thought. I liked it myself. I agree with your other assessments.

Its always crushing to watch the loved ones of KIA recount their story, those emotions are always just under the surface for them the rest of their lives

RIP, Moggie

Its infuriating beyond words how the CIA kept Ho's letters from Truman, the intelligence community was absolutely out of control in those days... something I fear we see repeating itself

God Almighty, Westmoreland could not have looked less believable standing in front of Congress saying 'we will prevail!'... as he nervously looked around

if the CIA gives those letters to Truman, maybe we back Ming and let him dictator up the country as long as they keep the Russia/Chinese communists out. That's what the hell we did all over the world in that era. Would have saved many lives on both sides.

Musgrave (Marine from Independence, MO) was pretty incredible in his interviews.

So was the Marine from Boston, Roger Harris.

Paraphrasing

"Don't believe what you read in the papers Mom. It's not going well. And I'm probably going to die"

"Thats not true. You're special".

"Mom, Every Mom thinks their boy is special. I'm putting a lot of body parts in bags of special boys".

JFC

Watching this really pisses me off. Our military and politicians KNEW in 1965 that the war was unwinnable. The USA already had 2,765 dead why didn't they cut their losses and move on from a war that was unwinnable?

Their mistake in lives:

The human costs of the long conflict were harsh for all involved. Not until 1995 did Vietnam release its official estimate of war dead: as many as 2 million civilians on both sides and some 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters.

The U.S. military has estimated that between 200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died in the war.

In 1982 the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated in Washington, D.C., inscribed with the names of 57,939 members of U.S. armed forces who had died or were missing as a result of the war. Over the following years, additions to the list have brought the total past 58,200. (At least 100 names on the memorial are those of servicemen who were actually Canadian citizens.)

Among other countries that fought for South Vietnam on a smaller scale, South Korea suffered more than 4,000 dead, Thailand about 350, Australia more than 500, and New Zealand some three dozen.

Musgrave is from my immediate neighborhood, where I grew up and still live. But there is no "Fairmount, Missouri." Fairmount is just the name of a general neighborhood. The center is roughly US 24 Highway and Huttig St. in Northwest Independence. Other neighborhoods in Western Independence are Englewood, Maywood, Mount Washington, and to the extreme west side Blue Summit (which we called Dogpatch). When I was a kid, I went to the Fairmount Christian Church. There was a Fairmount Grade School, Fairmount Park. But it's not an incorporated town, it's all Independence.

Musgrave was inducted into the Van Horn High School Hall of Honor this year. There's been many distinguished folks who have graduated from Van Horn. And the school is on a major resurgence now that it's in the Independence School District. Major construction going on now to expand it.

I'm right there with you. I don't think I've watched any other documentary that has caused so much anger in me. There's been a few times I've had to turn it off and watch it the next day.
What a horrible horrible waste of lives.:(

I've noticed a bunch of posts on Facebook of guys who were there in Vietnam, reliving their memories of time spent. I have a friend named George who lives here in KC. This is an excerpt from one of his Facebook posts:

After receiving my draft notice a few days after my 19th birthday, I met with an Army Recruiter who convinced me to take an extra year to become a medic. So, on October 21, 1966 I was inducted into the US Army at the building now used by the Kansas City Ballet, across the street from the main post office on Pershing Road. About 20 buses were parked on Pershing, ready to take us to Fort Leonard Wood.

After Basic training, I was sent to Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio for medical training, and then on to Fort Lee, Virginia where I worked at Kenner Army Hospital. I applied for a training program and was sent to Portsmouth Naval Hospital for 3 months where I learned about EKGs and Kidney Dialysis. Returning to Fort Lee, where there was no kidney dialysis, and after visiting the Renal Unit at Walter Reed, I applied for a transfer. Instead of going to Walter Reed, I received orders for Vietnam under the job description of “combat medic.”

While at Fort Lee in 1967-68 the hospital began receiving bus loads wounded soldiers, causing us to expand the old WWII hospital barracks to house them while they “recovered.” With orders for Vietnam I looked at these guys with the idea I could soon have a similar wound. I also attended a bullshit training program to teach me how the Vietnamese were not to be trusted and we should not feel empathy for their plight – the Army’s form of racism. I went to two sessions, and because I had the rank of Sp-5 I signed in to the classes and did not stay to hear the Army crap.

I arrived in Bien Hoa in late 1968 and was shipped to Cu Chi, home of the 25th Infantry, the area that experienced the major complex of Viet Cong tunnels, and where I went to work at the 24th Evac Hospital, a triage hospital for those wounded, the first stop before either being returned to duty or sent to 3rd Field Hospital or back to the US to facilities like the one at Ft. Lee. We worked 12-18 hour days, and sometimes around the clock.

I took the opportunity to accompany a few patients to 3rd Field Hospital, often making the transfer at the helipad, but once in a while escorting them to the triage area of the facility – holding an IV bottle or just helping a guy who was seriously wounded and fearful of every change. Once, while escorting into the facility I ran into my previous Company Commander at Ft. Lee, and had a brief discussion about our situations.

A few days later I found myself being transferred to 3rd Field Hospital to work in the newly constructed Renal Unit, where we treated the most seriously wounded patients coming to the hospital, because their wounds had caused their kidneys to shut down. In the remaining months of my tour, we treated over 400 guys in this condition. About 10 lived.

From a long lasting psychological standpoint, I’ve often thought I would have been better off staying at the Evac Hospital in Cu Chi. Regardless, I and the team in the Renal Unit did our best to ease these guys into their final days.

Washington Post has a story that's very interesting about how the film was pulled together, and how difficult it was to get all the pieces to fit:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/opi...=.a4ce6da9519c

I was 6-7 years old when I watched protesters spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam. When I asked why, I couldn't understand why. The soldiers were drafted. They had to serve or go to jail. Why were the protesters blaming them? Seemed out of whack to me.

That started my life long commitment to help vets. Started going to the VFW at first to help out at events as much as a 6-7 year old can anyway.

Musgraves story of survival was simply unreal, 5 or so different medics and surgeons looking him right in the face and basically saying 'not wasting my time, you're a dead man'

What a feeling that must've been for him

Scott,

Local PBS replayed the QA from the Midland theater a few months back. It's worth a watch as Musgrave is very heartfelt in his thanks to the men who "Not only did they save me, they saved my four kids". (Without them saving him, those kids don't exist.)

The first years of he war, The vast majority of men and women who fought in Vietnam were Honorable and truly thought they were serving to protect their country from a clear and present danger. After 1965-66 most started to question WTF we are doing there. As we find out later, they should have been, their leaders knew the war was unwinnable at that point.

Another new thing that upsets me is the racism the military put into the heads of these 18 year olds. As Musgrave said, paraphrasing, racism is essential to keep them killing in Vietnam. I know they are not doing that now, but it still is upsetting that we chose to do that to our 18 year old soldiers during that era.

Ah, the Deep State at work again.

The first episode was sort of a slog, but I'm about 1/2 through episode 4 now and its really growing legs and becoming extremely interesting.

I'm slobbering this down like knowmo on Seimean cock

So...that North Vietnamese veteran with the big blonde toupee. Does he think he's pulling that look off?

maybe it works in North Vietnam for war heroes?

The protestors directing their actions toward the soldiers was hopelessly and incredibly WRONG.

Ar least we learned that lesson. People separated the opposition to the Iraq war from the soldiers fighting the war. Overall the Iraq soldiers were treated like the heroes they were when they returned home.

Yes. Reducing the number of civilian casualties also helped, as the perception of the American public wasn't that our boys were "baby-killers" and stuff like that.

I really like how many who defend the Vietnam War think we were too soft. That we just needed to have more troops over there, and bomb MORE, and ramp up our aggressiveness. So incredibly stupid it doesn't bear mentioning. Just look at the Russians in Afghanistan. It didn't work for them, and it wouldn't have worked for us, even if we were willing to become completely amoral.

"We had to destroy the village to save it." :shake:

He's the NVA's version of Little Richard.

Maybe if you march from Hanoi to Saigon with the NVA, you get a pass in Vietnam. Either that, or everyone knows not to cross a guy who marched from Hanoi to Saigon.

I will binge - it'll be released somewhere.

You can catch them all right now on PBS website.

Good conversation with John Musgrave. Mike McGraw is the older brother of one of my best friends, Tim McGraw. Mike and Tim lived about a mile from my house. https://www.facebook.com/KCStarOpini...2562808502383/

Great series, I'm on episode 9 now.

One of the greatest takeaways for me personally (besides the atrocity of the war itself and the powerful personal narratives) was the total selfishness of all 3 Presidents during this time period.

You hear Kennedy, LBJ, and Nixon all admit they won't have good chances (or chances at all) at reelection if they pull out.

Kennedy was just such a ****ing hypocrite ("ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country")

annnnnd is worried about his reelection chances over American lives….what a ****ing asshole.

I never knew Nixon conspired with the Saigon government to torpedo the peace talks right before the election. Promising a better deal if they sabotaged the talks. Johnson finds out through wire taps and tells the Republican leader of the Senate of the treason. Nixon lies to Johnson but Johnson doesn't tell the American people.

We could have possibly ended the war and Nixon committed treason to sabotage the effort. Poor decision on Johnsons part to not tell the American people.

Wait, you're focused on KENNEDY?!? Are you f'ing serious? You do know when he was shot, right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl...img/maps/5.gif

My memory on this is that there was ALOT of smoke, but not alot of fire, in the sense of verification that this happened. Has there been any newly discovered evidence that Nixon did in fact undermine the Paris peace talks?

Maybe I'm too old school, and I've only seen three episodes so far, but the documentary seems to be very focused on Vietnam as a massive cluster****. Maybe it was; I'm not denying that. But I kind of feel like there's another side of the story, even if it turned out to be on the wrong side of history. There had to be some rational people who thought, "XXX seemed like a good idea at the time because of YYY. Obviously, we were wrong, but here's our thinking."

It's coming across a little bit like the drafting of Joe Montana. In hindsight, every scout and GM in the league wanted to draft Joe Montana and pushed for it. I'm hearing that everyone in America knew the problems in Vietnam and wanted to end it. I don't think that was the case.

there are wiretaps of the conversations and recordings of Johnson talking about Nixon being a traitor to the Republican head of the Senate.

He still had an opportunity to end it before that massive troop build up. He chose to keep "advisors" in country and his dream of a second presidency alive instead.

All three Presidents had their hands in the American presence there.

I guess the Kennedy thing just caught me off guard because I had always heard that had he not been assassinated, he would have likely pulled us out of Vietnam.

This just debunks that in my mind.

Last nights episode convinced me that, as crazy as all of the current protesting and mayhem these days seems... its but a drop in the bucket compared to that era

Things were well and truly out of control back then, like the idiots in Greenwich Village who made a bomb powerful enough to level a large brick apartment building

Best part of tonights episode by far, has been the story of the Wall Memorial, and the vets returning to Vietnam to set things right in their own minds, and get to know their former enemies

Extremely moving, and hopeful... my allergies are flaring up again

When I was in grade school, a family from Missouri moved into our tiny community. They had a son in the Marines, and he was KIA, 3 March, 1966. His sister was in my class. They chose to bury him at the local cemetery, but the family moved on. Ever since then, the American Legion post has cared for his grave.

His name always stuck with me for some reason. When I vacationed in D.C., I went to the Vietnam Memorial and found his name. I had a patch made for my motorcycle vest with his name and D.O.B. and date he died. I try to never forget his sacrifice. He was 18 yrs old.

That entire series had me teary eyed. The entire series was incredibly well done. And the reconciliation of opposing soldiers is always a beautiful humane moment.

America always eventually turns to friendship with our former war adversaries

US aircraft carriers will now be making port calls in Vietnam, and they have also sought our help vs China on the world stage

Something on the carrier visit
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...-vietnam-21970

Great article on how the rights for the 120 music tracks from the era were acquired.

http://amp.usatoday.com/story/105090768/

This is good. I said early on that the soundtrack had a Social Network feel.

And I had assumed getting license for the Beatles was part of the reason it took 10 years to complete. I was totally wrong on that.

I have mostly heard this in connection with conspiracy theorists who suggest that the CIA was behind Kennedy's assassination. I have never seen/heard any real evidence that Kennedy would have pulled us out. Given his stance on Communism in general, and his general hard-line attitude (see Missile Crisis, Cuba), I'm very skeptical.

BUT that does not necessarily mean he would have escalated it just like Johnson. Maybe he would have, but we'll never know.

I think the best explanation for the "other side" is literally inertia, or gravitational pull, or whatever you want to call it.

1. Communism is bad

2. We must prevent the spread of Communism / domino theory

3. We're the f'ing United States, and this is some piss-ant, third world country.

From there it was nothing more than egos, political calculations, and an unshakable belief that we could not lose.

You also need to understand that when China went Communist, and that was only 15 - 20 years earlier -- there was MASSIVE fallout across government. Hearings were held where CongressShits literally questioned whether George C. Marshall -- one of the greatest Americans ever -- was a traitor for "losing China." The State Department was under fire for years for being perceived as "full of Commie sympathizers".

Add to that the House UnAmerican Activities Committee, McCarthyism and the general insanity that pervaded government when it came to Communism and you have really removed the foundations for RATIONAL decision-making when it comes to whether or not to "stand against Communism." In that atmosphere, bureaucrats, like any rational human being, will err on the side of self-preservation.

It's all so goddamn tragic.

Unfortunately I believe we are working that way

I went to bible camp for a week in 1972 in the Arkansas wilderness. It was a beautiful place. Caves, streams, mountains. Nice barracks for us to sleep. Thats where the idyllic envitnment stopped.

Males and females were not allowed to touch each other, not even accidentally. You lost privileges if it happened. I grew up poor and it was free. So this was my families only option.

I remember watching a movie about communism in a beautiful cave. Way over the top propaganda. They showed us some images from war, atrocities commuted by commies. Really bad images kids shouldn't be seeing. Mulitple dead bodies, tortured people, people being shot etc. Facts and figures that showed obviously that communism is the worst thing to ever happened to humanity. After the film some guy who escaped Russia told us more about the horrors he had suffered and witnessed under the commies.

And this time around, the impetus isn't the righteous anger over shattered preconceptions, or the vision of a better, more just world.

It's addiction to the thrill of the thought of rebooting activist culture.

Instead of seeing an injustice and acting valiantly. They're reading the Cliff's Notes of history and going out to find something they can brand injustice to relive the old stories.

'They'll make movies of US one day!!

Yeah, just like that era, there is a lot of tribalism going on in 2017 politics. Large numbers of people protesting, Clashes in the streets between each other and the police.

But, I just dont see it getting as bad as it was back then. We are in a war but most support and recognize the need. The National Guard is not going to shoot unarmed protesters. There is no widespread appeal for building bombs and or use violence against the "other side".

This is a clip that didn't make it to air, but is a great prologue to the series. John Musgrave meets with some vets from Iraq and Afghanistan to talk about some of their issues, from suicidal thoughts to PTSD to dealing with wives and family members. They're sitting around in a BBQ place in Kansas somewhere. Runs about 20 minutes, but is the perfect end to this series. Take 20 minutes and watch it.

http://www.pbs.org/video/fellow-warr...ietnam-e0opas/

I can understand it the way one argument does: we made the Commies spend. They died at about 20-1 and we forced them to spend in a war we didn't "care" about.

Some argue it helped to end the cold war.

I would argue that assessment is correct.

I've also been witness to the results. My "uncle" who was honored and (today would be a MENSA member) blew his head off in his bedroom. His wife was forever ****ed and she later changed her and her kid's names.

My dad died of a "strange" form of brain cancer tied to agent orange.
The VA does not recognize this form of brain cancer as related to service. They agreed to treat him for free until it progressed and then told him "Sorry, we can't do anything. You're going to die."

When his doctors "across the street" found out about this they signed him up for everything they could and he was transferred from VA care to theirs.

I can't speak for anyone but it seems a lot of vets are going "across the street" and building a very solid case.

"We use to BBQ in the barrels. AO, spread, fuel, we'd take them, wash them out, and use them to cook out of..."

I can blow up each and every one of these, easily.

"They" died at 20-1? Great. But "they" were nearly all peasant farmers in Vietnam. They weren't our enemy, and were never going to be our enemy, until we forced them to be our enemy. This isn't like WWII or even the war on terrorism, where arguably these nutjobs would go somewhere and attack "the west" in some fashion if they could. These people would mostly have worked their damn rice paddies if it wasn't for us forcing them to be soldiers.

Yeah, no. The fall of the Soviet Union was not caused to any signifciant degree by Vietnam. I have never seen any argument that suggests anywhere near that type of causation/correlation.

I'm very sorry for the price your family paid. I'm also sorry that I don't think they paid that awful price for anything of significant value to our country. It's not remotely their fault that a combination of bad luck, bad leadership, paranoia and stupidity caused untold suffering here and abroad.

I finished the second episode last night. Had no idea Diem was THAT bad. I mean I read he was bad but never knew how bad or the details.

Just goes to show that not knowing the history or culture of a people well enough can lead to losing a war. Have to win the people and the Vietnamese just weren't going to let another western power control them.
Civil wars are the worst to get tangled in. I see similar parallels to our endless war in Afghanistan--also unwinnable despite more troops sent. Some things never change.