McDowell: Why The Chiefs Pursuit to Renovate Arrowhead Has Hit A Snag
 

We've been talking about this for a few weeks over in the Royals thread. It's been interesting to see how quiet the Chiefs have been while the Royals negotiate for a new stadium, and in the last couple weeks there's more and more smoke that the Chiefs and Royals staying in Jackson County is not a sure thing. Sam McDowell finally wrote about it. It's a very long column so I just picked some highlights. It's a good breakdown of the situation. It sounds like Kansas hasn't made any serious offers but they're the obvious alternative if Jackson County decides to punt, and it sounds like the Royals and Chiefs want answers soon.

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/sp...282553078.html

At some point Governor Parsons is going to have to get involved, right?

Losing the Royals would hurt, but losing their second football team to KANSAS?

I hope this has all been worth it for Frank White.

The folks that are nuts are the ones who keep bashing the Royals about the tax renewal part of their proposal.

I say if Royals leave Jackson County, there will still be a 3/8 cent Jackson sales tax and all of it will be for the Chiefs venue.

If Royals are asking for renewal of 3/8th tax and use the money for both teams venues, that would be a better deal for taxpayers, because the tax will be renewed for the Chiefs any way.

The site that would include KC Star printing building would be a much better location than the East Village in my opinion.

The Star hates the Chiefs. Take anything they say with a grain of salt.

The baseball deal my fall apart when taxpayers have to vote. People are sick of taxes to support loser teams and an owner looking to sell and benefit form a new and unneeded stadium

Lol this is an awful excuse to pay for billionaires. As a KCMO resident it would be awesome if both went to KS

It's all BS.

As a born Kansan, I too would be very excited to see the Chiefs land in Wyandotte. I’d just be stunned if Missouri let that happen lying down.

We all bitch about tax payer money being used to build stadiums for teams they don’t own but are owned by multi-billionaires. Why don’t they foot the bill themselves?

Every city. Every state. Every country has to deal with this. So far at the end of the day the taxpayers bitch and moan but they rarely say no.

There is enough examples of voters saying no and the team actually leaving town(Raiders/A’s/Colts/St.Louis) to make the threat real.

Jackson and Johnson are the two counties that could afford to pay for two stadiums with tax chicanery but I doubt their voter bases would go for it.

Especially Johnson.

So that leaves Clay and Wyandotte, right?

You simply CAN'T be the governor that loses the ****ing Chiefs.

Move them to Joplin or Sedalia!

I don't think Johnson County has ever been in the conversation.

Boy of all the things to criticize the governor over it would be that? Society is cooked.

It's a good thing he's a fan and long time STH

The extension of the existing tax seems fair enough to exist in the pro sports space

Footing the bill to demolish Kauffman seems kind of shitty but probably negotiable

So unless there's something more, and I didn't read the entire article, just the OP, it seems the hang up isn't the burden on tax payers but Jackson County (or White) feeling like they're not getting a big enough piece of the revenue pie from the teams

Yo I think the parking fees and beer profits from just one season should be able to pay for a new stadium.

If the Royals leave Jackson County, why should Jackson County extend the same 3/8th percent sales tax that was good enough for both the 80+ Royals games and the 15 or so Chiefs games every year?
It should be lower, I would think.
Also, if one county subsidizing a stadium is such a great deal for the people in that county, let's see what other county wants to do it.
Frank White ain't no dummy. He grew up near the old stadium and there were plenty of wise and respected folks there and elsewhere who questioned the fairness and the reasons for leaving Municipal and who was paying for it. White physically worked to build the Truman Sports Complex as a laborer before he made the majors, and he overcame lots of doubts about him as a player to become one of the Royals' all-time greats. He also has had a direct eye on the racism that has affected generations of Kansas Citizens on playing fields, in schools, at stores, in elections, and in many other venues. Those are the facts, which many will deny, but none of us who spent considerable parts of our lives in Kansas City's inner city listening to our elders and simply seeing what was going on would. I say that as a white man who is now relatively well-off, and living in sunny California. Racism doesn't explain everything. Some of it is simply classism, the rich being savvy about screwing the poor, which they are so good at that they get the poor to argue against their own interests.
Being mad at someone because they don't want to take a deal that is supposedly in their interest to take is stupid. If it actually is in their interest, prove it. If it isn't, then how about pulling your heads out of the mega-rich people's asses and realizing that you're being pimped?

All about the grift anyway. Who stands to gain? Owner, Mayor, Unions, Contractors, council

Why? This would not be good for KCMO or Missouri in general.

Really? Hell no.
The cost of everything has skyrocketed. The renewal of the existing is not fair. It is a huge win for the county and state as it lowers the actual $$$ to the teams because of inflation on many many levels.
The team that is a perennial bottom-feeding loser does not deserve the same as a team that is as successful as the Chiefs have been.

Per the OP the Chiefs are just asking for an extension of the existing tax so I assume they think its fair. Unless I'm misreading your post.

That is what the OP states. The county should jump on that as a bargain and that the Chiefs are wanting to stay at a lesser rate than what is actually achievable by such a successful franchise.

It is unfair for Jackson County tax payers to pay the whole freight of the stadiums. What do they get out of it but ticket access one day early once a year? but, life ain't fair.

Those other counties' ain't going to vote for a tax increase on themselves when they know Jackson county will cover the cost.

The sales tax is a percentage. If the prices on taxable goods go up, the total sales tax revenue increases proportionately.
On the other hand, if one of two major tenants leaves and their vacated space no longer requires subsidizing, then demands on those revenues could and should be lowered, particularly if profitable uses can be made to the space, which is what the stakeholders want, both the County and the Chiefs. The trick is to spread the burdens and rewards equitably, which could be a challenge if basic math skills are lacking in local residents.

It’s the same tax they’ve been paying. The rest is on the teams (sans the demolition of Kauffman apparently)

So on the surface it doesn’t seem like a tax payer issue or a team issue but a Jackson County government unhappy with their cut of the revenue issue

Unless there’s more to the story that I’m missing

I understand that but at $1,000,000 the revenue would be 3,750 and if the same items now cost $1,100,000 the revenue would be 4,125.

With the cost of everything along with the increase of necessities to get players to remain a winner, there is simply not enough revenue to keep the facility at or near the top of the league.

Does that county also get the majority of the tax revenue created by having the team there?

I never lived in KC so this perspective is from an outsider:

I think Arrowhead is an awesome stadium that has withstood the test of time.

If renovations are really not going to make substantial improvements, then I think the best option is for the Royals to get a new smaller stadium in downtown KC, build a brand new stadium where the Royals play that is for the Chiefs, concerts and events. Then once complete the Chiefs can move over to the new stadium and Arrowhead can be demolished and something added like a few nice hotels to host visitors.

I think the size of the place solely for the Chiefs would be awesome.

Not sure if all the long term season ticket holders feel like Arrowhead is past it's prime and want more amenities they currently don't have.

Let the cheap ass Kansans support the Royals for a change

And Frank White being a bitch because the Royals fired his ass from the tv booth and wouldn't consider him for manager.

The state is pretty bad on things that actually matter like education, health, infrastructure.

The city will have SKC in the east village in a decade and nobody will care the Royals moved to Kansas.

I don’t know if it’s the majority, but Johnson County Kansas sure gets a lot of revenue from Chiefs fans staying there the night before games and driving in on I-435 and other roads. Johnson County has benefited off of Jackson County for years, going back to retail Blue Laws that had Missourians shopping in Johnson County department stores and malls on Sunday, until those laws in Missouri were repealed in the mid-70s.

I doubt that it’s a good deal for Jackson County but I am fair minded, have a PhD in statistics, have co-authored over 300 scientific articles and am counted upon to do high-stakes peer reviews of research proposals and papers. If it’s a good deal, then show me the numbers. If it’s just the usual horseshit where the poor subsidize the rich people’s leisure that happens all over the United States compounded with Jackson County subsidizing Johnson Countians who then turn around and call Jackson Countians like Frank White all kinds of names, then they can go **** themselves all the way off.

This is what I had also hoped would happen. I assumed the Hunts and whomever else would lay out what needed to be done and KC/County would decide if they were going to do it or not. Then the Chiefs decide to stay or leave to Kansas for a better deal. It's not fair but my guess is the county is able or chooses to take the lead and make this happen or it won't.

I know historically St. Louis gets about whatever they want and KC is literally the Red headed step child that never gets votes for much of anything. Much of Missouri seems ok with everything leaving KC and STL being the dominant and only important metro area in the State. I don't pretend to understand why this is or why that appears to be the situation but it does. Unfortunately I wouldn't be shocked if they ended up staying or leaving.

I don't live in KC but I do live in JC and hear a lot of the talk on votes for different proposals. More accurately the bitching after they take place. It at least appears to be the political will seems to think if the County wants to keep it or improve it they will but they're not getting much of anything from the state. They either don't care either way or can at least take that stance and force the county to shoulder the burden.

I think it's shitty and don't understand it. I'd prefer to see a better state and two great metro areas. Make everywhere better to live in.

Frank White is being a **** for being fired from the Royals. Everyone is saying it across the spectrum.

Are they backing it up with any plausible arguments showing he's wrong? Where are those arguments? "Everybody" knows that stadium deals are all about grifting.
https://www.twinkietown.com/2020/10/...ns-texas-taxes


https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-th...SAAEgLsI_D_BwE

Some people act as if they've never seen posturing before.

There isn't really a justification for a city or state paying money for a stadium beyond "pride."

Chiefs probably can't really go anywhere unless Clark really wants to be the pioneer of the first internationally-based NFL team by putting them in Mexico City or something.

But the Royals could absolutely be moved to any number of cities that might make a lot more sense for Sherman than remaining in a rapidly declining Kansas City metro.

If what was reported about Frank White in regards to the recent Use Tax is true, then he is definitely a sleezy skeeze bag. Supposedly he wouldn't sign it, so it could go to the ballot, because he knew the people of Jackson county were pissed because of the recent spike in county assessed home values and he didn't like that the language for how it would be spent was so specific. Why wouldn't he want it as specific as possible? Couldn't get his own cut of the pie, so he said **** that shit?

Kansas City isn't a declining metro lol

Arrowhead need to bring back the rolling cover concept.

Also, I'm not sure I see why so many seem to act like the sales tax extension is such a huge burden. Jackson countys portion of the sales tax is only 1.38%. With the Chiefs and Royals only getting 3/8th of a cent, then that means .375% is because of them. That means if you spend an absurd $50,000 a year in Jackson Co. the local teams are getting $187.50. That's a while $15.63/month.

I'm willing to bet none of you are spending that much anyway, so it's less than that. Hell most people contribute less than $100 each year. To me that's not worth losing either team over.

Yeah I'm not sure where he's coming up with that. It's the exact opposite of declining. If the metro lost the teams, then it would definitely become a declining metro though.

Hard to fill luxury boxes with corporate clients with corporations don't stick around..

Cerner, DST, KC Southern..

Really?

So I don't follow which cities are possibilities that closely, but if the KC area just refused to do anything on a stadium and Clark was inclined...

You really don't think the team could be moved to another American city?

How much longer will Jerry be able to prevent San Antonio from getting a Team?

Now THAT would really be something!

Why? I don't see a scenario where the Royals stay at Kaufmann.

Kansas City has never been a huge corporate town but sells out a 75,000 seat Arrowhead every game, including all the recently-built suite additions. In addition to 4 Light, there are several other housing and other projects beginning in Downtown. In 2012, KC Downtown had 225,000 out of town vistors, a decade later, the number is 10+ million and steadily increasing.
A Royals Stadium location anywhere other than Downtown would be a monumental disaster. Nobody wants to come to KC from Minnesota, Chi, Stl, Iowa, Omaha, et al and spend the weekend at the Legends. It's just silly talk/posturing.

Maybe Frank White will do everyone a favor an die

That would be great for this whole nonsense and the entire Jackson county property tax scam thats a back alley abortion with rusty equipment

I really don’t understand the entire downtown stadium thing. Are you there for the game, or something else? The Truman sports complex was a brilliant idea 50 years ago, and continues to shine. “But I can’t find a BW3 or an AirBNB within walking distance” is a shit excuse to spend a billion and remove an iconic facility.

Would it be better for the Chiefs if the Royals were removed from the equation? I would think it certainly could be better and really should be better because of the disparity between the two franchise's situations and the drive to obtain wins and provide the best product for the tax payers and fans.

I think The K is fine (convenient, unparalleled parking ease), but Sherman says (at gunpoint) that the only way to stay competitive is to create alternate/additional income streams with a new facility. I personally think the "crumbling" state of the K is an exaggeration at best, and I would MUCH rather see MLB get it's shit together and institute a real salary cap, but IF they must leave the K, the Downtown model has proven a success in nearly every city. The Rs avg just over 16K/game, they need to do something.

No idea about the condition of the underlying infrastructure. As a non-Royals fan, I can say that the “K” without a doubt is one of the best places to watch a game in the entire MLB.

I don't know if you are in this category, but a lot of people who feel like you do, don't actually understand the revenue that is generated in the city of Kansas City proper, because of the location of the Chiefs and Royals.

While the loss of said revenue would not be immediately felt, over the course of time the city will have to raise taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, etc. to start recouping the monies lost.

City governments are slow to react to trends like a steady loss of tax revenue, especially revenue that isn't easily tracked or quantified, as in this case, and that delay could end up causing long term damage to the city that would more than likely be a long term issue.

I don't know. I am super high, but I remember lectures from economics in college talking about this type of issue. Actually, I am thinking of a lecture hosted by the economics and political science professors. I can't remember the freaking introduction of the lecture, but I feel like it was something about city management, but I am really high and can't remember.

Royals is one thing but if the Chiefs leave Arrowhead it'd be like if they knocked down the Louvre

Could the infrastructure have "crumbled" that badly in 14 years? It must have, since none of the $250,000,000 renovation was earmarked towards infrastructure :hmmm:

Frank White can go **** himself with a rusty fork.

The R’s average that because they put up a shit team. Does a downtown stadium change that?

Word salad.

Yes, if it increases revenue...that's the whole point.

We discussed this over in the Royals thread but the thing is who knows how good the Chiefs will be for the life of these renovations. There's no way to know who's going to be doing what in the 2030s beyond. By the time these renovations come through or a new Arrowhead is built, Mahomes should be here but who knows about Kelce or Andy Reid or lots of other guys. It's like they call Lucas Oil the house that Peyton built but Manning only played like 3 or 4 years in that stadium.

It's literally the topic of the thread. I'm sure there are other more important things; I'm just not sure why anyone would be addressing them in this thread.

Boiled noodle

That has been disputed

https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30...icy%20Research.

Chiefs finally step up to the plate. Basically putting the ball in Frank White's court.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Joint statement from the Chiefs and <a href="https://twitter.com/Royals?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Royals</a><br><br>�� <a href="https://t.co/oYWWVFO5aO">https://t.co/oYWWVFO5aO</a> <a href="https://t.co/aw6qwlSaiR">pic.twitter.com/aw6qwlSaiR</a></p>&mdash; Kansas City Chiefs (@Chiefs) <a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs/status/1743392163235307889?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 5, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Full Statement from Jackson Co. Execuitive Frank White regarding Chiefs/Royals announcement. <a href="https://t.co/a2nwDfc6sN">pic.twitter.com/a2nwDfc6sN</a></p>&mdash; Harold R. Kuntz (@HaroldRKuntz3) <a href="https://twitter.com/HaroldRKuntz3/status/1743412755636318539?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 5, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I love Arrowhead, but we need a stadium with, at the very least, a roof/dome, but preferably a retractable roof.

For me, as a fan who can't afford a suite every game, other than laying radiant heating under the concrete where I stand in the winter, there is no amount of renovation or rehabbing that is going to improve my game day experience.

I will not vote for anything that doesn't include a roof, whether it's renovations or a new stadium.

I have a huge 4K television and I have decided that I am too old to do winter games anymore.

I know Clark Hunt and Mark Donovan don't care, because I am just an average fan, and I am no longer their target audience. Their audience is people making over 6 figures a year.

If Clark Hunt didn't grow up in Arrowhead, and if Lamar Hunt hadn't always said Arrowhead was his dream, the Chiefs would probably already be playing in a new stadium in Kansas.

I still love the movable roof they tried to build.

Voted for it. Would have been so great. Even though that part failed, on the ballot along with it were renovations that passed that made both stadiums amazing.

Still don't get why either team needs a new one.

The crazy thing to think about is that those renovations are damned near two decades old at this point.

It's clearly not about the facilities, it's about the luxury suites and the PSL's they can sell to bolster the purses they claim to need to remain "competitive" in the league (even if the Hunt money is a deep, deep well).

Sorry your old bones can't handle the cold anymore, geezer. It's a young man's world, and football played in the elements is ****ing awesome.

Hum MO full of folks just good enough is fine. Did not realize MO and AL R the same...

What?

Tickets are selling for $800+. People don’t mind the cold.

New Arrowhead will be outdated in 15 years just like the current one is

Sure, and Final Fours and a possible Super Bowl would also be awesome.

Also, it would be great to see a major concert in the summer without the sun baking everyone alive.

It's on now. Frank White vetoed putting the tax on the ballot and as it stands now he has the votes to make it stand. If someone doesn't flip back in the next four days the chances of the Royals and Chiefs leaving Missouri would have to go up I'd imagine.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sean Smith is the fourth legislator to publicly support Frank White&#39;s veto &quot;without ... documentation that is clear and unambiguous and signed by all parties.&quot;<br><br>As it stands this afternoon, the Chiefs and Royals do not have the votes to override White&#39;s veto for an April ballot. <a href="https://t.co/k3uenUsRRf">https://t.co/k3uenUsRRf</a></p>&mdash; Sam McDowell (@SamMcDowell11) <a href="https://twitter.com/SamMcDowell11/status/1748100257676665169?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 18, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Chiefs need to have a dome, Superbowl, Final Fours that kind of stuff.

So what is Franks goal? I'm not from KC so I don't know anything about the politics of this.

:spock:

We never were and never will be the Kansas Chiefs, regardless of this pure speculation.