The Last Dance
 

I'm pumped up for this. On ESPN.

Same. I assume this will be the focus of sports talk for the next 5 weeks, other than the draft.

Jordan is going to get destroyed on Twitter. People are going to realize what an asshole he is. He was so damn good and was perfect for the era of the highlight. His lifestyle would get destroyed in today's social media world.

We all know he's an asshole, right? I don't feel like there's too much that can change that. Still love him.

Still love that Bulls intro. And the Bulls management have to be the biggest ****ing idiots on the planet to break up the greatest team ever.

I'm too young to remember the Michael who was humble coming out of North Carolina. Seeing him on the show not being the usual cocky Jordan that I'm used to is very weird.

Skip Carrey Harry Carrey son doing some basketball!

I respectfully disagree about getting destroyed. Most wouldn’t care because of his greatness on the court. And for those who did he’d send a definitive F.U. by raising his game to another level.

This times 1000

MJ had final say over content/editing, so anything in there he approved of.

I'd like to hear the real story about playing baseball. No ****ing way he just up and left basketball to play minor league baseball.

Definitely prefer the gold chains Jordan era over the beret wearing Jordan era

I doubt they touch on that. It was a de facto punishment though. The NBA was pumping full speed ahead, at a level of popularity never achieved before. It was punishment for gambling. His dad was also murdered because he owed bookies some money, and he just decided he wasn't going to pay them because he's Michael Jordan.

So he's the reason his dad died? I assumed he left cause his dad died. Didn't know much about gambling

just watched the first two episodes. Great stuff. Most of the Krause issues we knew about on some level, but to actually see it is another thing.

Another interesting item is just how similar MJ's beginnings are to Mahomes' now. Did anyone else notice the paper headline "A Star is Born"? And how a lot of the language that players used to describe MJ vs. how players talk about Pat now?

Can't wait for the next episode.

I definitely noticed a parallel with that, but it also really makes you appreciate Mahomes even more for not acting like a douche bag.

It's nice and I am grateful that Mahomes is as personable and polite as he is, but if he were cockier and had a more evident mean streak, as long as he still played at the level he plays at, i wouldn't really care.

MJ wasn't like Allen Iverson or Rodman or whoever. Yeah, he had a mean streak, but he wasn't a douchebag, IMO. He was extremely competitive, but so what? He won six championships in 10 years. And should've won 8 in 12. To be a winner at that level you're going to have personality quirks.

Put it to you another way: would you rather Mahomes be nicer and only win 2 SBs, or more of a 'douchebag' and win 6?

I just have Hulu, not Hulu live. Can I watch it on there?

not happening

this is Jordan’s highly edited view of what happened. Not a traditional neutral observer documentary.

Absolutely. Everyone knows exactly what MJ was and understands that is why he was able to will himself and his team to greatness.

Two episodes in and loving it. These were the glory days of the NBA and it's so fun to relive it. It was all downhill after this era unfortunately.

Apparently not.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...the-last-dance

Phil goes on to win what, 5 more titles after being dumped by Krause, who doesn't win another?

Good call, Reinsdorf.

"Don't call it an equal opportunity offense. It was ****ing bullshit."

ROFL

Actually from what I've seen so far, it's not just MJ's view of what happened. We're getting multiple perspectives, from some of his teammates, Phil, even Krause and Reisendorf.

It's actually a great watch so far.

Jordan sounds like he still hates Isaiah Thomas.

It's just not the way that Detroit played him. He also blames Thomas for freezing him out of the All-Star game when he was a rookie. One of Jordan's conditions for playing on the original Dream Team was that Thomas not be on the team. He legitimately hates that guy.

And to be honest, with what Isiah has done at every stop of his post-playing career, I can see why.

Thomas is a little **** and it's natural MJ would hate the bitch. I'm a lifelong Iowa Hawk fan and was in 8th grade or so when Isaiah was at Indiana back in '81. Everyone in the B10 hated the punk and he continued to act like a twink into the NBA and afterward.

Here is a blurb from the SI vault:

Some people in the conference feel that Knight has made other accommodations for his sophomore star. For instance, when Thomas slapped Purdue Guard Roosevelt Barnes in retaliation for Barnes' slapping him, Knight called a press conference for the express purpose of clearing Isiah's name. Nineteen days later, when Thomas was ejected from a game at Iowa for slapping 6'10" Center Steve Krafcisin with the back of his hand.

MJ sure does like to use the F word

Yeah, it's not really what I expected going in but it's been a pretty good ride so far.

Loving this for sure. I watched the bulls all the time on WGN and was a big fan.

IT was one of the few players to ever get the better of MJ in their careers (he was 36-29 against him). As competitive as those two were (they were both assholes on and off the court), not surprising that the hate is still very much there.

he had final cut. Jordan decided what went into the documentary and what was left out. At least they were open about it and fully disclosed it prior to the release.

Lest we forget..... Karl Malone was a pedophile. Got a 13 year old pregnant. Refused to take care of the kid even after DNA confirmed it was his kid. Dragged into court to get him to pay a lousy $200 a month in child support. Kid looks exactly like him.

Guess you can get 13 year old girls knocked up in Utah without consequence.

Same. It's great seeing all the old reporters, TV personalities, fans, and rival teams. There was never anything like that era before or since.

What MJ did, and the defenses he did it against, was unworldly.

If there are people not familiar with the era itching for more, Magic and Bird: A Courtship of Rivals is very compelling. . . Also, the 30 for 30 on the Pistons, Bad Boys.

It was a great time and definitely love the personalities etc. Definitely brings back great memories as a teenager.

Back then I believe the age of consent was 13 or 14. Mormons.

Isiah and Pistons knocked Bird and Jordan out in one year. And almost knocked Magic out as well.

And we had Mike Tyson at around the same time.

And they left in a lot of people openly criticizing MJ.

Jordan Griffey Bo Jackson Gretzky what a time to be alive. If only tiger was in that generation

So far this is a great watch. The fact that Jordan only signed with Nike because of his mom was great. To see his competitive nature on the court and off was fascinating. But also just to relive those days, and be impressed again by just how good he and the Bulls really were. This was the best basketball team to ever take the court. Can't wait for Sunday.

Hopefully, Mahomes will get one of these in 25 years.

He'd be way less rich.

Burr havin' fun

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except none of this is true

Not a single word.

I actually am a staunch supporter of being able to be a heavy gambler despite any job or public image one has. But if you lose you have to pay your debts.

Way to go, Craig.

They did.

I never knew Pippen quit like that. Holy cow.

That was a very emotional time.

So disappointed in Scotty, so proud Tony stepped up.

Nice to find out after all these years that they squashed it before the night was even over.

Just finished watching 7&8. This shit is ****ing crack. Except way, WAY better. JJ Watt was right. 10 episodes is just not nearly enough.

Back in the 80's and 90's, I wasn't into college or NBA basketball, other than being a casual observer, until maybe Jordan's final season with the Bulls. The only thing I knew about him, other than quitting the Bulls for AA ball, was that he was biggest sports star in the world, with his face absolutely everywhere.

From an outsider's point of view, it's an interesting look into "greatness" and after watching 8 episodes, he's not unlike people in other categories of fame, whether it's the "greatest" actor in the world or the "greatest" singer or guitarist in the world - they're all pretty much what I would consider, assholes.

For whatever reason, our society frowns upon everyday people acting like assholes but if you're "great" at or in something, it's waved off. It's an interesting phenomena...

I'm 37. I grew up with these teams. I never blamed Pippen for refusing to go into that game, and I never blamed his teammates for feeling betrayed. Pippen ate shit for years, was criminally underpaid and underappreciated, and that season he was one of the three best players in the game. He earned the right to take that shot, and Phil should have given it to him. It's great that it worked out, I'm still happy that Kukoc made that shot, because he had to eat a lot of shit too, and the Bulls really should have won that series (Hugh Hollins absolutely ****ed them on a foul call that swung Game 5).

Yea. To me it's a given. Nice guys finish last. Guitar players are assholes in general though.

I'd replace being an "asshole" with being "demanding". I find, when you work with high end professionals in any situation, they're going to demand those around them hold their same high standard. If that makes them look like an "asshole", so be it.

I've got a good buddy from my old job who's at the top of his field and a great guy to go out with for beers, but , boy oh boy, he was demanding when you're working with him.

IMO - Jordan used practice to demand that his team-mates be able to play against the adversity they'd see game time. It was also probably practice to test out his best shit talk tactics against his adversaries. win-win.

It's kind of like Van Halen's "No brown M&Ms rider". Were they assholes or demanding?

For those yougin's who don't know, here's David Lee Roth rambling about the brown M&Ms rider, (decent story):
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Calling people "****ing flaming pillowbitergots" and saying things like "I want the money in your pocket to be MY money" is not "demanding", it's being an asshole.

Jordan earning $36 million while his running mate is earning $2 million is not being demanding, it's him being a asshole. Not giving a shit about anyone else but yourself, is being a narcissistic asshole. If Jordan was ruler of a country, he'd be a totalitarian dictator.

As long as you're the "greatest" at something, that behavior seems to be all fine and dandy, but that doesn't fly in the real world for "normal" people.

This is a really entertaining show. The insight offered is incredible.

Jordan was lucky he went to a perfect situation. Imagine him pulling that shit in Portland?

And keep in mind, it's only a glimpse of what occurred, certainly not everything, as Jordan has full editorial control.

Imagine him trying to do that today, barely 20 years after he retired?

Not really. It's competitive intimidation. Trash talking. I've said something similar while playing pool tournaments or gambling, even against my own teammates. As Jordan said, if you can't handle that kind of pressure in practice, you'll crumble when in the playoffs against the Knicks or whoever. He was preparing his teammates for the battles to come.

Jordan didn't make Pippen take that crappy contract. There wasn't a salary cap; Pippen could've negotiated a better deal, but he chose not to. Not Jordan's fault. That was completely on Pippen not valuing himself highly enough.


MJ's driving force was to win at any costs. Is that self-centered? Maybe. Or maybe it was just being utterly focused on a single goal.

Did he lead his team to 6 championships? Are any of those teammates complaining that they rode MJs cape to 6 rings?

Every player interviewed was grateful to Jordan for not only the opportunity, but also how he led them.

I feel like it's been pretty fair. They've touched on his hatred of Isaiah Thomas, the gambling issues, the alleged scandal with his father's murder, the borderline bullying etc.

I can appreciate that it's not just pumping rainbows and sunshine up our asses for two hours every Sunday.

It wasn't "trash talking", it was physical and mental intimidation.

Professionals don't need to be physically and mentally intimidated in order to perform at their highest level. That's an outdated 50's and 60's model that's been proven false time and time again.

He didn't help Pippen, either. Pippen took the contract offered because he didn't really have any alternatives. If he was injured, his playing days could and he'd have little to show from it.

If you're phsyically and mentally abusing someone in order to win a champsionship, you're an asshole, plain and simple. Bullying is no longer acceptable in today's society.

Note that you said "every player interviewed". To date, the documentary hasn't shown every second of every interview with his former teammates, so you have no idea how each of them feel.

Documentaries are made in the Edit Bay. They're not historical documents.

I don't know how anybody can watch this and not come to the conclusion that MJ was a massive asshole (which I don't think is surprising new information). He had the final cut on this and he still comes off as someone just awful to be around (and other than Isaiah, they've really only included interviews with his friends).

And that isn't even getting into the central narrative of the entire thing which doesn't hold up to much scrutiny (the vilifying of Krause, a guy who helped build the greatest roster in history around MJ). Was Krause really supposed to rework Pippen's contract just to be nice or not scout guys like Toni Kukoc in Europe just so it wouldn't upset Jordan/Pippen? And yeah, you can say that Krause had some responsibility for the dissolution of the Bulls at the end, but Reinsdorf could have stepped in at any time and stopped it if that's what he/MJ/Phil wanted to do. The lack of any voice being there to defend the guy's actions throughout is a failing of the documentary.

Agreed.

The way he constantly insulted and belittled Krause was difficult for me to watch, so I can only imagine what it felt like to actually be in his shoes.

Maybe. We'll never know if those Bulls teams would've won 6 rings without MJ crafting those teams as he did. What we do know is that it worked. And just how do you know what works and doesn't with pro athletes? Some players need to be reined in, while others need to be turned loose. And so forth. The list of players that could've used a swift kick in the pants on a weekly basis in every sport is a very long and inglorious one . . .

Pippen has admitted several times in previous interviews years before this docu-series saw the light, that he took the contract he was offered because he came from poor beginnings and he was afraid that he might somehow get hurt and not be able to provide for his family, which was his ultimate concern. That's not on Jordan. And where is it written that it was Jordan's job to help Pippen with his contract negotiations?

Oh for Pete's sake. Cry me a river. We're not talking about today. This was over 20 years ago. It wasn't called "bullying" back then. It was called "toughening up your teammates".


I don't recall saying that this was a historical document. I don't recall using the word "historical" at all. Not in a single post to this thread, anyway. I don't recall saying every second was aired. I don't even recall saying every player that played on those teams. I pretty much said that every player we saw interviewed in the series . . . which is a subset of the total. I didn't even say that I knew how all of those players feel. I said that of the players we saw interviewed, they all seemed appreciative and grateful. Which are only a couple feelings, not every done they might've felt.

But they were significant enough feelings of gratitude for them to all express during their interviews which says something.

Pippen was one of my favorite players as a kid (I still have his jersey in my closet), but when the reason for taking a contract is "I needed the (long-term) security for my family", then that's what you give up in exchange. He chose not to gamble, and he got what he wanted. Ownership literally told him not to take the deal.

Exactly. I forgot about that part. They told him not to take that deal.

Good catch.

You're the worst kind of fan because you don't care if a superstar treats those around him like complete and utter shit. He cheated on his wife and treated everyone around him as if they were beneath him.

His post Bulls career has been a joke, which isn't surprising given how he treated people in the past. Who would want to play for that guy?

Then why offer it? The answer is clear: To take advantage of him, plain and simple.

I hope that franchise never wins anything, for 100 years or more.

You're right. I don't care if other fans think a player treats his teammates however they think he/she treats them. In general, I don't care about a player's private life, or how they get along with the teammates.

Do I care that Van Gogh cut off his ear and gave it to a prostitute? Do I care that Elvis began dating Priscilla when she was only 14? No, not a bit.

If that makes me somehow a bad person, well, so be it.

How in your convoluted mind is that Jordan's fault?

Convoluted? What the ****?

This forum has been bitching for decades about Tom Brady taking less money each year so that the Patriots can put a team around him. People have been hoping that Mahomes will take a "Hometown Discount" so the Chiefs can continue contending for Super Bowls in the next 10 years.

But you have no issues with Jordan taking $36 million while Pippen receives $2 million per year?

Yeah, Jordan's a real team player and couldn't have done a thing for his teammate(s).

Good ****ing grief.

Wha?

He wanted a long term deal. They offered one, because he asked, but advised against it. He signed it. 5 years later he got pissed at management for holding him to a contract that he requested.

Should they have renegotiated because he was one of the best players in the NBA? Probably. But to say they "took advantage" of him for giving him exactly what he requested - long-term security - is completely backwards.

We'll have to agree to disagree. There's no freaking way in the world that Pippen would have had to settle for a measly $2 million per in today's NBA.

The ownership took advantage of him, plain and simple. And no one stood up for him, including Jordan.

I don't think you can compare the NFL to other sports because of the way the contracts are setup. The NBA had no cap at the time. The NFL "taking less money" is just taking more guaranteed money to lower the cap number and has no effect on what the player is actually being paid.

I can't think of an instance of a MLB or NBA player giving money back to a team so that they can pay another player. But if there is one, please do share.

MJ taking less would not have affected Pippen's contract. It wasn't because the Bulls were out of money or were up against the cap. They said "you signed it, you deal with it"

Krause: "a lot of kids all over Europe want to be like Toni Kukoc"

LMAO

False:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-ba...cash-earnings/

Tom Brady's Cash Earnings earlier this decade were $12 million, $13 million, $19 million, $13 million, $14 million, $15 million, $15 million and so on. He was a Super Bowl Winning QB during that time and was most certainly taking a discount.

Major League's Player Association is the strongest union in all of sports and has been that way since the 70's and the advent of free agency. Good to great players are traded all the time in order for teams to pay certain superstar players because they don't receive any monetary relief by cutting players due to the fact that all contracts are guaranteed.

If the NBA didn't have a cap, why was Jordan paid $36 million while Pippen, the 2nd best player in the NBA, had to settle for $2 million? It wasn't because the owner couldn't pay him, it's because the owner chose not to pay him and the NBA's Player Association at that time had very little power.

He didn't have to take less money but he could have threatened Reinsdorf, just like he threatened and bullied everyone else around him.

He choose not to, plain and simple.

So much of a joke that he makes more retired than he did playing and actually has the highest personal wealth of any athlete ever.