Yeah, like I said earlier, I think they're about an 85 win 'true talent' team. But they burned off about 8 of those wins through playing like balls in April and into May.

So they'll have to battle to get to 80, IMO.

And sadly, that just keeps us in purgatory. So maybe you root for 90 losses and hope that will be enough.

It has to affect attendance in my opinion.

That was pathetic

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The glove, the throw, the stretch! ��<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> <a href="https://t.co/xBzo03qWNl">pic.twitter.com/xBzo03qWNl</a></p>&mdash; St. Louis Cardinals (@Cardinals) <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals/status/1658992791664336898?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 18, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Throwing out the first pitch tonight ... former <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> manager Mike Matheny.<br><br>Believe this is his first event with the organization since he was dismissed in 2018. Fans had a chance to purchase a special ticket that included a bobblehead of the former catcher. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cardinals?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cardinals</a></p>&mdash; Derrick Goold (@dgoold) <a href="https://twitter.com/dgoold/status/1659341251374731264?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 18, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's kinda awkward is it not?

Wilson with a bomb shot to center

Little home run derby at Busch tonight

Urias is cooked tonight

Dejong absolutely crushed that ball.

Holy shit 4 homers in one inning

dong show right now

Cardinals offense helped Wainwright out. He is struggling.

I love Waino but he should have hung it up last year with Molina and Pujols

Someone notify Big Bill

Okay go have a seat you bum

Omg Yepez i can track the ball better than that

The Cardinals have sacrificed their first born.

Nolan Gorman’s 162 game pace:

49 HR 146 RBI

That's like saying Liberatore is on pace to win 30 games with a zero ERA. We all know it's not happening.

Gorman has been criminally underappreciated, especially by this organization. Just last week he sat the bench two straight games against the Tigers.

He's good and he's going to get better (especially if he reduces his K rate). He's not knocking in 146.

Christopher Morel's 162 game pace:

101 HR 202 RBI

Suck it!

Well considering Marmol's dumbass has already sat Gorman in what seems like half the games this year he wont have nearly 162 games under his belt.

Gorman continues to hammer the ball, and that one was off of LHP.

And Marmol continues to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

That Dodger lineup is unreal.... MVP candidate, ROY candidate, Betts, Freeman it goes on and on. With our sorry ass management, taking a split is good. Win a series, its the players in spite of management.

He's hit two homers off LH pitching lately. He needs to play everyday.

And of course with a LH on the mound, he’s on the bench and the next Pujols(according to the real Pujols) is in. He’s hit two home runs lately against LH pitching. It would seem that warrants giving him AB’s against LH pitching.

Marmol said it's a routine day off for rest and that he's earned the opportunity to play against LHP.

When’s the last time anyone can remember a dude riding the pine in the middle of a 10 game hitting streak?

He’s saved this teams ass with late inning home runs and hits. Day off my ass. He’s had a lot of days off sitting on the bench letting those Faberge eggs play at a way way less productive level.

Yes its epically stupid, the kid isn't 35 years old.

Maybe you baseball nerds know something I don’t but that dodger lineup is a killer and we outscored them to win 3/4. Are we good or just a small streak?

We have a line up that can score and we caught their staff at a good time.

Our starting pitching still isn’t good.

Good old Kerchoke.

Regression to the mean. Arenado wasn't always going to be that bad and their hit sequencing was due for some luck. May and Urias are also injured now, so they dodged one and got a hurt version of the other.

RIP to Rick Hummel. Between him, Shannon, and McCarver, this year has been a goddamned death march for Cardinals media figures.

No doubt Danny Mac is sitting in on an AA meeting.
sec

Fire "BT" good ****ing God he's an abomination. At best a discount Hudler knock off. Embarrassing this team can't do better than this calling games

I’m sure he’s working for cheap. That’s why he still has a job. “Drop the head of the bat” to explain a home run.

Helsley cannot pitch two innings, imploded on Saturday when bright out for a second inning, and yet Marmol brought him out with the Manfred runner on.

Extra inning rules are dumb as shit. Ghost runner? What is this 8th grade PE?

Agreed but besides Dejong the whole lineup left the offense in STL, Thats a bandbox. Serious fail.

https://www.si.com/mlb/cardinals/new...ibextid=Zxz2cZ

If Ohtani is on the trade market, the Cardinals would be toward the front of betting odds to acquire his services given their resources both financially and in the farm system. One pundit believes St. Louis is the top landing spot for Ohtani this summer.


What group of players would it take to pull that off? Those big trades are the ones that seems to something Mo doesn’t screw up. Arenado, Goldschmidt, the trade in 2011 that got us a World Series. That doesn’t mean I trust Monto do shit(Miami trade), but he falls on his face less often in those trades.

Pffffttt.

I’m all in for Ohtani. Fills a gap in SP and has an elite bat to boot. We can finally get rid of our massive backlog of hitters. As far as young talent, I wanted to keep Gorman and Walker last year and still think the same. If Cards go for Ohtani, they won’t trade Noot since they are friends. May not make baseball sense but it is business sense. But everyone else should be open in negotiations. Is it possible to acquire Ohtani and keep Gorman, Liberatore, Walker, and Noot? I’m not so sure.

Oh for ****s sake

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

There is ZERO chance Mozeliak and DeWitt pull that off. None ****ing whatsoever.

So now we have no room for Ohtani because "WE GOT NOOOOOOOT" What will the fans chant!!! Par for the course. That would be 2 offseasons in a row he'd cost a prime deal

Give ya a hint: No.

Ohtani is probably the most marketable player in the sport. He's a perennial MVP front runner. The Angels won't be trading him at a rental price. If a trade for Ohtani happens it's going to be on the assumption the acquiring team is extending him and the price is going to reflect that. Basically paying for the rights to bypass the uncertainty of FA.

The Angels will throw their best offer at him to extend him and if they can't, he'll get dealt for something slightly less than the Nationals got for Soto. The marketability and two-way status makes him more valuable in a vacuum than Soto but he's a pending FA vs. Soto's 2+ years of arb eligibility.

I mean this is essentially the same thing that was said about Machado and Harper and when it was all said and done, Harper left for nothing and Machado didn't bring a ton back.

And if the Angels have any interest in trying to retain him and think there's any way at all he'll change his mind, they aren't going to open a negotiating window for potential acquiring teams either. If for no other reason than it may just end up slamming the door shut to a pre-FA extension possibility for the acquiring team (once the sides start trading numbers) and further diminish his trade value. It's why many, if not most teams these days, don't offer that negotiating window.

I mean, what's your 'moon and stars' price, here? 2 top 25 prospects? I don't think he'll get that as a pending FA. Nobody does anymore.

Then again, the state of prospects in baseball right now is pretty weak, IMO. Sal Frelick shouldn't be a top 25 guy yet there he is. Marco Luciano DEFINITELY shouldn't be and yet he's top 20. Even Marcelo Mayer, a top 5 guy is...fine. I mean he's 20 years old at A+ so he's a little underaged but you'd think he'd be in AA by now if he's a star in themaking. And I'm still not sure there's a standout tool in there anywhere.

It's just not a great crop of minor leaguers at the moment, IMO. I mean once you get past Diego Cartaya, I'm not sure I see many real blue-chippers left unless you're willing to really do some deep diving into the low minors and man, those are just dart throws.

I'm not sure when Noot ****ed your wife but this is irrational.

I dont think 2.

1 for a starter though.

I think if the Cardinals were to do it the centerpiece would be Gorman vs Walker.

Who would you choose? Do you think Gorman spontaneously figured out how to reduced his strikeouts by 6%+ or is this just a hot streak like O'Neill experienced for a year? If you think he's legit then I would probably go with Walker in the deal. Walker for all the praise of power he gets just doesn't show it in game. He's not fairing any better in AAA and then you are left with having to figure out where the **** he plays on the MLB team. He's all time terrible in the outfield, so is he a DH because of Arenado? His value to the MLB team just isnt there.

He'll still require a shit ton going back to Anaheim, but it won't be as much as Soto for a few reasons:

1. As you mentioned, Soto was under contract for multiple seasons at the time of his trade.
2. If San Diego kept Soto up until to FA, SD would get a pick if he rejected a qualifying offer.

Why do you dislike Nootbar? His defense and ability to get on base are both valuable skills that you'd want in an OF.

And getting Soto would've done absolutely nothing due to how terrible the rotation is.

Luciano isn't universal top 20 anymore. His stock has plummeted. Baseball America has him down to No. 33 on its latest update and Fangraphs' Ryan Langenhagen has him on the backend of his top 100 the last I checked.

Because you sell now on that one....trust me

Walker is going to come down to swing plane. If he doesn't start adding loft, he's Ke'Bryan Hayes without defensive value. Maybe if you're lucky he becomes Yelich (but not the MVP year Yelich where he had a 13 degree LA vs every other season of his career being at/below half that).

Walk absolutely has to get the ball in the air. He's just not getting enough out of his raw power and so that's going to impact how teams pitch to him and thus his OBP as well.

Then again, he's so damn young that there's plenty of time. And Gorman was a baby when he made his debut as well and it took a season or so to firm things up.

Short answer is that I don't give up either for a rental. Not with this ownership group unwilling to go into the market and win.

'Bout time.

He hasn't done anything in 3-4 years to demonstrate that he's even a real top 100 guy, let alone top 20.

He's not developed a bit for SF.

There's nothing about what Nootbar's currently doing that seems to be unsustainable.

Which is why I think trading TON or DeJong for a rental (though he's going to outproduce his contract but holy shit he's so ****ing inconsistent offensively). I like TON, but I can't see there being room for him in the OF if they insist on keeping Carlson along with Burleson/Yepez (which one of them should be moved as well for a reliever).

Offense is finally producing as we expected but the rotation is still a dumpster fire. Bullpen is worse than I envisioned, though.

I want Winn up so bad, but until he shows he can hit minor league pitching consistently, there's no need to rush him.

Complete aside, I think Edman might be my favorite player on the team.

They pitched Liberatore out of the bullpen but keep trotting Matz out there to get completely shelled.

There is absolutely no baseball reason to continue pitching Matz over Liberatore. Dumbshit Mo doesn’t want to look bad, or even worse because of Matz overpay.

ROFL "we'll see"

There is no way we are getting a quality starting pitcher without trading either Gorman, Walker and or Winn, correct?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Clutch in crunch time. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> <a href="https://t.co/N8VJ1sqACo">pic.twitter.com/N8VJ1sqACo</a></p>&mdash; Bally Sports Midwest (@BallySportsMW) <a href="https://twitter.com/BallySportsMW/status/1661816705134239755?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 25, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

We all know thewy aren't trading for a quality starter, it's just not in this club's plans. If they were going to trade any of them it should be Walker. He stinks in the outfield and has no clear path to the big club if he's not in the outfield.

Gorman is untouchable. Deal you know who

I'd really prefer them not make any trades.

John Mozeliak's ability to scout his own players is so goddamn bad that he's essentially a sitting duck in these conversations. He has no earthly idea who can actually play at this level so when he's making deals, other teams are just picking his pocket.

Fortunately he finally appears to realize this so he's simply unwilling to deal.

If we're hell-bent on keeping this pile of shit, doing nothing is the best we can do.

The odds of us getting anyone notably better than Graceffo or McGreevy are pretty long unless someone like the Giants falls out of it and are willing to deal Cobb. But ultimately, the Cardinals have more reasons to be sellers than the Giants do. When you start to look for teams that may sell veteran SPs, most of those teams are BETTER situated than STL is.

Its really weird that the Arenado and Goldy trades have been his best. But.... thats not the whole story. We got the better part of those deals because of the incompeteance of the other teams, not Mo's GM expertise.

Even if you are a terrible poker player sometimes you find two fish even bigger than you. Nevertheless, you're still prey to everyone else in the pond.

FWIW, Goldschmidt's bat is showing serious signs of slowing down this year. They need to have a conversation about dealing him while he still has some value.

doesn’t he have a no trade clause?

I'm curious to know where Goldschmidts bat is showing serious signs of slowing down. All of his advanced numbers are in line or better than career numbers. The only thing that seems odd so far this season is his success against fastballs but then you compare his expected results against prior years and he's improved.

Goldschmidt is fine - his bat has never been cat quick.

But ultimately that's exactly WHY he should be traded. He'll be extension eligible at 37 yrs old and the team has a half-dozen guys who's best defensive position is probably 1b. The 'outfield logjam' is born of sticking guys like Yepez and Walker out there who have noplace else to play. Or Gorman at 2b, displacing Donovan and/or Edman.

Freeing up 1b is how you get some of these 'logjams' to free up a bit from a defensive perspective.

Moreover, Goldschmidt is still a good player with 1+ years left on his deal. An acquiring team gets 2 post-season runs from him at a relatively strong AAV. His base salary is only $22 million and that's prorated this season so we're talking about roughly $36 million over the next season plus to get the reigning NL MVP in your lineup for the post-season. That's a pittance from a financial perspective.

So if extending him makes little sense and you're not a viable post-season team (even if you do manage to sneak in given a lousy NL Central), then why shouldn't you trade him at the highest his value will be?

Goldschmidt, Montgomery and Flaherty are 3 guys who should be moved without a moments hesitation. All 3 should be on the market at the moment and you should be looking for higher ceiling players in A+ or if you're lucky AA.

The team doesn't need anymore fungible 2 WAR players - we have plenty of those. Trade your assets for high end lottery tickets like the Rays did with Junior Caminaro a couple years back. Try to get 3-4 of them and hope 1-2 of them pay off.

You think he's content playing out the string here?

If you're Goldschmidt, last season's MVP puts you on the HoF radar.

He now has 4 top 3 finishes plus a win there. He has 7 All Star appearances and 4 GGs to go with 5 silver sluggers. He'll probably get to 400 career HRs and maybe 1400 career RBI and Rs.

He has a chance to break into the top 100 in career WAR.

All he's missing to firm up that case is a post-season pedigree of note. He's played in one NLCS in his career and was, frankly, embarrassingly bad against Washington. He was a complete disaster.

So if you're Goldschmidt, if a team like NY comes calling, you absolutely waive that NTC. Philly has the talent to do damage and no 1b, even if they're underperforming. But the upshot to that kind of deal is that he can rack up MASSIVE stats in that ballpark and knows Philly will continue to spend to try to address shortcomings and give him a platform for post-season success.

Goldschmidt would be nuts not to accept a trade if it meant giving him a chance to further his HoF resume. The MVP absolutely opened that window for him - he has a real shot now.

No chance is he content with the way things are right now. Flaherty should be the 1st one traded. He's actually pitching fairly well so hopefully they could get a return for him. Mo said on TV over the weekend that they aren't selling.

His stuff is kinda decent at this point, though his command is still a disaster.

As a pending FA, you won't get much for him. Certainly nothing with ceiling that's close.

But you could get a couple of Ian Bedell/Victor Scott II types with some strong tools who haven't broken out yet. Maybe they never do and they just end up organizational filler. But at least if they DO break out, they'll be able to be strong contributors.

A Joshua Baez total wild card would be about as well as you can expect them to do. Someone with tools for days who's probably 3 to 1 against to ever so much as perform in AAA.

Honestly if it means unloading Jack I'd take it. I can't stand that whiny entitled POS.

In Today's 'logjam chronicles' - your CF for the "too many outfielders to find playing time for" Cardinals is....Tommy Edman. Your Gold Glove middle infielder.

This team is just stupid.

It's fans even moreso for buying this bullshit.

Oli saw Schildt get fired for running the team the right way. He must just figure "**** it, I've got to blaze a new trail here or lose my job!"

That's the only plausible explanation.