thats as good as lineup as any team in baseball. Legit WS contenders. Which means it ain’t going to happen.

There is no God if Fowler is on this team in 2019 and makes more money than Goldy.

On the team or not hes still going to be making more than Goldy and barring a trade hes still gonna count more against the Cardinals payroll.

No one is going to trade for him though, so I guess it's time to embrace Atheism.

what makes you think I haven’t already?:harumph:

I don't think Cohn read what Dewitt said yesterday that we had 3 good choices in RF. We had 88 wins last year and everyone is back on offense and we added Goldy so we should be better.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">ATTENTION: <a href="https://twitter.com/Bharper3407?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Bharper3407</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/kayyharper8?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@kayyharper8</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Cardinals</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/dgoold?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@dgoold</a> <a href="https://t.co/1VZmBtKlOt">pic.twitter.com/1VZmBtKlOt</a></p>&mdash; Andy Cohen (@Andy) <a href="https://twitter.com/Andy/status/1072168255144558592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Mo blows, so "should" isn't a gimme. Still third in talent in the division.

We won 88 games with a 1/2 season of Matheny. If O'Neill can get his strike out ratio down, he'd be a big addition to the lineup. Speed. + defender, pop in his bat etc.



The bullpen needs a shit ton of work. I can think of 9-10 games off the top of my head that the Holland, Norris etc. blew after they flames out when it was clear they didn't have the capability to get anyone out anymore but were still in there. Maybe we lose those anyway? Have to think just an average relief pitcher gets us 1/2 those games.

Leaves only Philly? Where everyone thought he'd end up anyway?
<twitter-widget class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" id="twitter-widget-0" style="position: static; visibility: visible; display: block; transform: rotate(0deg); max-width: 100%; width: 500px; min-width: 220px; margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px;" data-tweet-id="1072328410469326848"></twitter-widget><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Yankees?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Yankees</a> adamant today they are not in Bryce Harper sweepstakes</p>&mdash; Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) <a href="https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/1072328410469326848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 11, 2018</a></blockquote>
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If only the Cardinals had a 4-6 win corner outfielder, like that guy who plays down in Tampa.

You don't need to try so hard, Mo.

Everyone knows you aren't in on Harper. Because you're gutless.

There are several articles about how they are hoping Fowler will return to "2017" form. Yuck.

Also read that Gyorko has said that he's willing to be a super backup if necessary and start learning OF if that is what it takes.

Hoping your starting right fielder returns to .264/18/48? That's a pretty low bar.

Mo sucks at his job.

Sunk cost fallacy

**** Turdy

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">As the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> continue to search for ways to get better, they remain committed to starting Dexter Fowler in right field. <a href="https://t.co/9tl5dWVPuN">https://t.co/9tl5dWVPuN</a></p>&mdash; Jenifer Langosch (@LangoschMLB) <a href="https://twitter.com/LangoschMLB/status/1072517239247654913?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 11, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Basically overpaying for that turd gives him another chance

Think the Dodgers are still going to be involved. Ricketts apparently signed off on any big deal Theo needs to make, not sure if that means trade or FA, however. Everyone is saying the Cubs are in lock down at the meetings and arent leaking shit. I'll believe it when I see it though. They would have to move Heyward and one other contract like Quintana or Zobrist to avoid ****ing up their draft position.

Yup.

But/for his contract, he'd have been DFA'd before the season ended. The only reason he has a job right now is the fact that Mozeliak sucks at his job and gave him a contract he never had a prayer of actually earning.

Cecil and Gregerson are in the same category. Neither of those guys would be on a major league roster if they weren't owed millions of dollars either way.

Gotta love Moe's willingness to double down on stupid.

It's a good reminder that most people in management are more concerned with keeping their jobs than being good managers.

When you add Holland to that list why would we have any confidence in seeking bullpen help through free agency? I would rather they don't spend a dime on these shitty multi-year reliever contracts than spending nothing. They rarely pay off and hampers you from making big moves on position players. The best free agent reliever deal we made was for frickin Bud Norris as basically a reclamation contract. Spend it on position players or proven innings eater starters.

I saw Bernie's column in some online rag and he basically repeated ad nauseam "it's the bullpen stupid." Well yeah, we need to do something there, but not with Harper type money. That is just idiotic thinking.

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure what the hell Mozeliak would have to do to lose his job at this point.

His batting average over the last 5 years has been sub-Fowler level.

Bernie's right and he's wrong.

Yes, the Cardinals need to fix the bullpen. No, the answer isn't paying big money on a multi-year deal for a veteran reliever. Reliever volatility isn't even a theory anymore - it's simply a fact of life. If you acquire a free agent reliever and give him a 3 year deal, you're lucky to get 2 good seasons from him.

The Cardinals have a number of arms with plus stuff that could absolutely be bullpen assets. They simply have to find how to slot them and how best to use them. There's no shortage of 'stuff' in this system and if you can't find a way to come up with 6-7 guys that can get 3 outs/ballgame from this system, that's a misuse of assets problem.

Going into the FA market and dedicating 'dry powder' to !@#$ing relievers in an attempt to double down on a bad strategy is just asinine. It's especially asinine when the fact that you're in this mess to begin with is precisely BECAUSE of said bad strategy.

Oh - and a reminder: As the Cardinals owners have gotten wealthier and wealthier with record operating profits over the last 15 years, they've gotten cheaper and cheaper.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I put Cardinals past payrolls in 2019 MLB dollars to see how Cardinals have kept up.<br><br>Cardinals Rolling 5-Year Average ($M)<br>2004 $195 M<br>2005 $199<br>2006 $196<br>2007 $195<br>2008 $192<br>2009 $184<br>2010 $175<br>2011 $175<br>2012 $177<br>2013 $177<br>2014 $177<br>2015 $175<br>2016 $173<br>2017 $167<br>2018 $165</p>&mdash; Craig Edwards (@craigjedwards) <a href="https://twitter.com/craigjedwards/status/1071133409844649985?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 7, 2018</a></blockquote>
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This team cares about one thing and one thing only - profit. They give zero ****s about winning a championship. They've realized that appearing to want to win is more profitable than actually wanting to win. So "our goal is 90 wins" carries the day.

Because 95 wins will cost a hell of a lot more.

I agree getting the big money top relievers is fools gold. Those contracts are worse than signing an aging over 30 hitter to a long term contract.



Trade Jose Martinez for the best LH bullpen help you can get and make your farm or failed starters your bullpen. Your not going to know what you have when you start the season or who will break down, but it has to be next man up. Who does the best, move em closer to the 9th. They do bad, move them farther away.<iframe scrolling="no" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.9ce180c0c49f44ddce62d99e17b55f5a.html?origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chiefsplanet.com&setting sEndpoint=https%3A%2F%2Fsyndication.twitter.com%2Fsettings" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;" frameborder="0"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium none;" title="Twitter analytics iframe" frameborder="0"></iframe>

No one wants to trade for Jose Martinez, I'm not sure why you keep throwing that out there.

middle inning, LOOGY pitchers cant be that valuable.

Dodgers won't be getting Harper unless they start clearing out their outfield.

I just read they are willing to trade 2 of their outfielders and Hill and Wood are available.

Send a couple OFers to Miami for Realmuto and get Harper. That would be gross.

The Astros could actually use him.

But you're not gonna get much for him. Maybe if you're lucky you could 'pry' someone like Cionel Perez away. But it gets back to the same old shit with this team - you seriously don't have your own Cionel Perez somewhere in this system? Have you become so lazy and entitled that the idea of developing relief arms is suddenly beneath you?

I'd honestly punt on the LH reliever crap and see if the Mariners would trade us Vogelbach and a AA arm for him. Vogelbach sucks; less defensively capable than Martinez even. But at least he hits lefthanded with some power and will take a walk.

Look - if we don't trade for someone like Vogelbach, we'll sign Daniel !@#$ing Descalso and call him our bench lefty. Because that's just how unbelievably stupid this organization has become. So we might as well 'lose' a trade to fill a hole in the roster and prevent us from doing something even less intelligent.

If there's an intelligent decision to make, we won't be making it.

They could offer the Marlins their entire OF and it wouldn't get them Realmuto. The only guy they have out there that might be of interest to the Fish would be Verdugo and I'm still pretty sure that guy is fool's gold. I mean maybe Bellinger but I'm still pretty sure he's not an OFer despite their insistence on putting him out there.

"Positionless baseball" works in video games but they're not winning a championship with Cody Bellinger in CF.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source: The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SFGiants?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#SFGiants</a> have gotten a ton of calls on lefty Will Smith and the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> are among the most aggressive pursuers. Might be tough as Giants aren’t keen on losing him.</p>&mdash; Mark Saxon (@markasaxon) <a href="https://twitter.com/markasaxon/status/1072536510610726914?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 11, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Just trade him somewhere and be done with it. I don't wanna watch the guy anymore.

We gave Brett Cecil a 4 year, $32 million deal.

Besides, 30 year old RH hitters with nominal power and an inability to play credible defense anywhere aren't that valuable either.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tony Watson’s another option for <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a>, though Smith has more appeal to them, it seems. They’ve been looking at ways to turn Jose Martinez and his years of control into a lefty, and that’s drawn them into trade alternatives to free-agent lefties. <a href="https://t.co/wRZ3u2BGXp">https://t.co/wRZ3u2BGXp</a></p>&mdash; Derrick Goold (@dgoold) <a href="https://twitter.com/dgoold/status/1072540412122972165?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 11, 2018</a></blockquote>
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"Aggressive" = "Pretty pretty please!!! Please take Jose Martinez for him!!!"

It's the same kind of 'aggressive' I get from my 4 year old when she wants to watch cartoons but didn't finish her dinner. The idea that I'm not on board with her suggestion is just a complete anathema and if I'd just listen to her wail long enough, surely I'll come around.

I think the current rumor is that the Indians want Verdugo in the Kluber trade.

I'd love for the Dodgers to get Realmuto AND Harper....but I don't see it happening.

HA! I didn't even get my !@#$ing post typed.

"PUHLEEEAAAAASE" doesn't equal 'aggressive' Saxon, it equals desperate.

But hey, Mozeliak's heard of Will Smith and Tony Watson before so of course that's where he's going.

I'm fairly certain that this point that the Cardinals don't have a scouting department. I mean Jesus Christ, it's like they just pull up Yahoo's pre-season fantasy rankings from 4 seasons ago and make their shopping list from there.

Maybe you can educate me here - what the hell am I missing with Alex Verdugo? Why are the Dodgers so routinely adamant that they won't be moving him?

If you can give up Verdugo as the key piece for 3 years of Corey Kluber...what's the holdup?

Is it the sub-optimal power that does it for them? Or the middling speed and defense? The guy is an AB sponge that won't actually produce much. If everything goes right he's what, Nick Markakis? Do the walks really give them that much of a hard-on? He could just as easily be Robbie Grossman.

Every time the Dodgers end up in trade talks it's "We won't trade Alex Verdugo..."

Aight - suit yourself. Kershaw's not getting any younger.

Sounds like the Yankees are going to be the team trading for Realmuto anyways. They must be pretty confident in signing Machado because they are talking about clearing out 3B by dealing Andujar along with needing a SS for at least 1 year.

I just dont understand why the Dodgers would look at 2 WS appearances and say we don't want to spend now.

Would like to see them work something out with the Twins for Taylor Rogers. Seems like the kind of lefty they have been missing.

No ****ing clue. I'd easily give him up in a deal for Kluber. Even a trade for Kluber and a Harper signing would be amazing. Especially since it sounds like the Mets are going all in for Realmuto.

The Dodgers are pissing off a lot of their fans right now with the "not spending now" talk.....right after the Time Warner TV deal.

There's ONE big market team in on Harper and the !@#$ing Cardinals are taking themselves out of the running for him.

**** this ****ing team.

If you are looking for just a LOOGY I'm not sure why you wouldn't just sign Xavier Cedeno that was non tendered by the Brewers.

I had to look up Xavier Cedeno to remember him.

If a good baseball fan has to look the person up, that's not Moe's speed when it comes to acquiring bullpen help. Moe needs someone that can easily be the subject of a spring-training puff piece. Ideally someone that's been in the post-season and if they've pitched against us, all the better.

Once Moe gets to his 90 projected wins, all he's worried about is ticket sales. Xavier Cedeno will sell precisely zero more tickets. Will Smith, OTOH, saved some games last year so Bernie and Goold can write articles about how the bullpen is saved now. That'll convince a few old timers to come out to the ballyard.

I mean c'mon - we signed Greg Holland FFS. What makes you think this team knows ****-all about building a bullpen?

Hey I'm not going to get in the Cardinals way if they want to give up a player and spend double what they would pay for nearly the same guy they could get in FA.

Philly just threw 3/$50 million at McCutchen.

And we know they want Machado more than Harper.

The dominos are falling in the Cardinals favor here and they're absolutely not going to engage. It will end up with Harper looking for a soft landing (he's going to opt out in 2021 anyway; he wants to see FA prior to age 30 and under the new CBA) so if things don't come together for him, he's going to take a short term, high AAV deal somewhere.

It'll probably end up Chicago because our ownership is gutless.

If Boras would just dispense with the need for headlines (gotta get that first $300 million contract), when he KNOWS his guy is opting out after 3 seasons absent a career altering injury, he'd probably convince some team to throw up something approaching $45 million/season for 3 seasons.

If Mozeliak can't get Harper in this environment he needs to rape himself to death with a pole saw.

But hey - have you seen those powder blues, man? And holy cow Goldschmidt is a nice guy. Besides, Dexter Fowler is in the best shape of his life!

!@#$ing Cardinals...

Honestly, he could have gone the cheap route and just not traded Pham and the difference between signing Harper and not is negligible for 2019.

DeWitt and certainly has entered the "Lamar won his SB and can now coast" portion of his ownership

Without LaRussa's psychotic competitive streak, there's nobody left in this organization to drive DeWitt into action.

As you've noted - all Mozeliak wants to do is not get fired. He will NEVER stick his neck out to convince DeWitt to sign off on a bold move. If he does and it doesn't work, he gets canned.

So DeWitt's inclination towards resting on his laurels and watching the money roll in will continue to go unchecked. There's just nobody left in this organization with the wherewithal or cache to challenge it.

And I said this awhile ago, but that inclination should surprise nobody. DeWitt and his family are baseball royalty and have been for about 50 years. The guy has seen and done all there is to do. Apart from somehow being named commissioner, what else is there for him?

He's shut it down and there's nobody around anymore that can snap him back into action. The team is just a giant PR wing at this point.

You could give him $50 million for 3 years. Boras gets his headline and record setting yearly salary. FA with new CBA. Cards have no long term commitment.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This one is a surprise. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Dodgers?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Dodgers</a> talking to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> about Jose Martinez, sources tell The Athletic. LAD could play the defensively challenged Martinez at first base, with Muncy at second and Bellinger in center.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1072719214190911489?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 12, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Dodgers are shopping Puig and Kemp, too.

Dodgers also talking with the Reds in a Puig for Homer Bailey trade.

They have gone full reeruned after 2 WS losses. The depression has kicked in and suicidal thoughts are creeping in.

Homer Bailey? Arguably the worst starter in baseball? Is Friedman having a crack addict fire sale?

The belief is that they would be "buying" prospects in the Bailey trade to flip to the Indians for a pitcher.

Clear money for Harper.

That makes sense.

The Dodgers have all the money in the world for Harper. They are projected $15M under the tax. They wouldn't even hit the 2nd tier if they signed him right now. Besides, trading Puig for Bailey to then trade for Kluber doesn't clear shit in payroll, it adds.

All is saved! We have our lefty hitter off the bench. Except he can't seem to hit major league right-handers, but hey he is left handed!

Wow, that dude is actually worse than Garcia. Nice work, Mo.

**** Garcia. Munoz is a way better choice for the utility role.

Garcia is a LH utility player. This guy is a utility player too,just worse.

I'm not a contract guru, but how does adding 19 million in salary clear money for Harper?

Eh - he's a lefthanded Munoz. Defense, approach, all of it.

He absolutely mauled righies in his minor league career and showed a surprising amount of pop for a utility player.

I said when we acquired Munoz that I'd have some use for him if he hit lefthanded, well that's pretty much what Robinson is. He has a chance to be a pretty useful 25th man on the roster which makes him more valuable than Garcia.

It's a 'meh' deal but a fairly useful one, especially since he still has an option year left. I don't see anything to complain about with this deal and if the !@#$ing guy would go get Harper and then move Martinez for a 'stuff' lefty instead of a 'name' lefty, we'd be in pretty good shape.

There's always been a path towards contention with this team if Mozeliak has the juevos to pull it off.

Sadly, he doesn't.

Career minor league numbers are sub-Garcia, hence the concern. The extra year compared to Wisdom is useful, but this guy's projections say AAA.

we got a ton of legitimate beefs with this FO. getting anything for a guy that any team could have had for nothing but a waiver or rule 5 claim doesn’t get my pissed off juices flowing.

If they could flip Martinez for Puig, would that work?

I don't bother with anything below AAA stats, for good or ill.

He has a significant enough sample size at AAA to draw from and it shows a guy with good power and solid plate discipline. And when you break it into splits, it shows a guy that absolutely smokes right-handed pitching.

Garcia was an average only guy who went up there looking to hit a well placed grounder or battle long enough to draw a walk. That's not completely useless but it was on this squad where we had no lefthanded power. This kid, OTOH, gives us an actual role off the bench in late innings. He's probably not someone that's going to go out there and house Kimbrel or anything, but he can get out there in the 8th against a setup man and put one in the gap for a crooked number here and there.

Now to be fair, his big league numbers say he may be a AAAA guy and if so, eh, whatever. We didn't give up anything for him and we still have Edman who will be Greg Garcia when he grows up. But the plan here is sound.

If I'm going to grade on process, the process here makes sense.

No. Why would I want to do anything to make it easier for the Dodgers to get Harper?

Who knows what the **** the Dodgers are doing. There are tons of rumors out there.

In the end the team that won the NL Pennant will do a hell of a lot more to improve themselves than the squad that came in 3rd in the NL Central.

I'm pretty sure we can bank on that.

Because some teams give a shit - others want 90 wins and consider a $50 million profit break even.

According to Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic, the Dodgers are talking to the Cardinals about Jose Martinez.

Martinez doesn't make a ton of sense on paper for the Dodgers given his struggles defensively at first base and in the outfield, but perhaps they would promptly flip him to an American League team. The 30-year-old can certainly hit -- he's posted an .850 OPS in 270 games over the last three seasons with St. Louis. Martinez seems certain to be traded somewhere this winter.

There are rumors that the Cardinals would consider dealing O'Neill for Will Smith.

I mean **** me in the face at that point. That deal would be STAGGERINGLY stupid. I mean just unbelievably idiotic. 1 !@#$ing season of a lefthanded reliever for 6 years of a 30+ HR outfielder who will take a walk and can play CF in a pinch.

I'd say they aren't that stupid but...they are.

As for the Dodgers - what gives the Dodgers the ability to flip Martinez to an AL team if the Cardinals can't? Aren't they effectively talking about a 3-team deal in 2 parts at that point? Is Mozeliak still chafing about that time he gave up a cleanup hitter in a trade that involved Corey Kluber and he ended up with that piece of shit Jake Westbrook?

I mean I know his history with 3-team deals isn't great....well y'know what, his history with 2 team deals isn't all that stellar either.

Just go back to be, Moe. This job's beyond your pay grade.

Well, because I know they aren’t getting Harper in stl so might as well atleast entertain me

Okay, how about "Puig is 3rd year arb eligible and will make about $12 million in all likelihood. Additionally, Puig can eat my asshole. So...no"

See, I like Puig. But oh well.

I'm at the point where I'll take on just about anyone so I don't have to watch Dexter Fowler be awful

Oh don't get me wrong - if they'd take Fowler and my first born child for Puig, I'd probably ask that they throw Watson in the deal but if they passed I'd probably still say yes.

But the sooner you accept the fact that Dexter Fowler is your opening day rightfielder, the easier it's going to be for you to watch him ride that car around the warning track with that beautiful beautiful smile.

The smile should help you get through all those extra bases he gives up through lack of effort and a DH's throwing arm.

I'm serious - has anyone confirmed that the dude actually throws with his right hand? Could he actually be a lefty and doesn't know it? How can a professional athlete of any stripe have that weak of a throwing arm?

Boy, if this doesn't close the book on my "Tony LaRussa is the guy that convinced DeWitt to actually try" argument, I don't know what would...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Behold Tony La Russa beclowning himself by going on MLB Network and saying that the arguments against Harold Baines being in the Hall of Fame are “weak-ass superficial bullshit.” I would gladly have that confrontation/debate with someone whose best argument is game-winning RBIs. <a href="https://t.co/Wa2hRzdxhE">pic.twitter.com/Wa2hRzdxhE</a></p>&mdash; Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1072933631000117248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 12, 2018</a></blockquote>
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So Tony LaRussa, through sheer rage and force of will, convinced 11 other right-thinking individuals that Harold Baines belongs in the Hall of Fame. I'm still gobsmacked by that.

Would 'peak Harold Baines' (which was, what, 4 years?) be considered among the top 10 OFers in baseball right now? Top 20?

And I'm guessing LaRussa, his former manager, just sat in that board room and glowered the rest of that panel into submission. "Good lord Tony, just stop yelling at me! Fine, we'll put him in the Hall. Please, just go throw stones at children or something..."

Fowler does have a really nice smile.