Hammel only got 2 years 16 million and only did that because of the unexpected death of Ventura. Ill give you the other 2. They needed to be all in if that was the goal not trying to serve 2 masters.

This is Solers worst season by far. He was even better with the Cubs. The not resigning of Cuban breakfast was a terrible mistake. They should of re signed Volquez instead of signing Hammel. I don't know if Volquez already signed with a team before Venturas death?

I am just about at the end of my rope. I just shouldn't read the internet really. It's my own fault. So many Royals fans want to sell, and I just don't get it.

Now I will say, if you can get a Greinke like package for one of these guys, maybe you should do it. I wouldn't be upset at that. We do have an uphill road to get where we want to go. But that's been my worry since May... just about every baseball writer out there is saying the market for position players is going to be rough. It isn't some big secret. It makes sense. The Dodgers, Cubs, Astros, Nats... they are all completely loaded across the board. Scary good. They all need pitching, and at least so far the trades are bearing that out.

I think you just go all-in and hope for the best. Hope that bringing in a Jay Bruce or someone like that gives us a shot in the arm. People want to start selling out of anger, but if you dump Moose, Hos, etc and get a Finnegan/Lamb type return, then where are you? You are completely and utterly f'ed. You're done. You have nothing to build on.

You'd literally be better off just letting all these guys walk, getting the picks, then trading Duffy and Perez for Greinke-like packages. Those are the only two guys on this team who are probably going to bring you a decent return. The rest are half season rentals. But by doing that you are going to see 5000 people at the K again and probably risk screwing up your one shot to sign a great TV contract that could give your payroll a shot in the arm.

Volquez already signed and was horrible his last year here.

There is no answer.

Sell and get little return.

Stay and miss the playoffs.

Neither option is palatable in 2017.

They're not selling. There's no one to sell. As tk points out, all the contenders are loaded. I guess you could try to get Moose to the Red Sox(don't think they'd give up much)or to the Angels(if they think they have a WC shot). Vargas maybe but I'm pretty sure other gm's see Vargas for what he is, a decent guy having a good year who is probably regressing to the mean. You either get some pitchers and go for it, or just let these guys play out a swan song while we the fans are left to hope for a winning or at least a .500 season to keep that streak alive before we hit some dark ages(not 2005 dark but not good).

Yep. I think they probably do nothing and the fans hit a level of acceptance come the latter part of August and just try to enjoy these guys a few more weeks.

It's the half season thing that kills you. The Sox do need a 3B, but they have a handful of prospects there who just aren't ready. Dombrowski is pretty loose with his prospects but I don't know that he'd trade one of them unless he knew he could sign Moose.

We need Raul Ibanez back

2014 doesn't = 2017

I wonder if Billy Butler is still available for a DH role

Indians lose again

The state of this discussion has been pretty sad at times.

We have a GM who has led a small market team to unparalleled success out of any small market team since the turn of the century.

Yet, because of things like the tragedy of Yordano Ventura's death, he's "sucked ass."

Give it a break. This isn't MLB the Show. GM's can't edit a players attributes to fill their rosters with all-stars. I challenge anyone to name a GM who has taken a team with the Royals payroll to the heights that Moore has taken the Royals.

Protip: u can't.

I feel like Leia making a distress call to Obi-Wan. Reaper and Al would do wonders for this discussion at this time.

Which players have ascended since the 2011 draft?

You seem to have no problem criticizing the Chiefs but zero when it comes to the Royals.

Yet, which team ascending and which teams is descending?

What evidence do you possess that illustrates that the Chiefs are ascending?

Getting bounced from the Divisional Round of the playoffs has been a favorite pastime of the Chiefs since the 90's. I've seen no evidence that they've ascended beyond that traditional January disappointment since.

As for the Royals descending from the mountaintop, well, not every team can be a dynasty. Though many primary Chiefs fans seem to confuse pyrrhic regular season success as such.

To answer your question. I've actually acknowledged the Royals shortcomings through the draft several times (i.e. see OP), but if you really want me to answer, I'd point out that Cain, Escobar, Strahm, Bonifacio, Cuthbert and Manaea are all players that either the Royals acquired or who ascended through the Royals system since the 2011 draft. I know many Royals fans are ready for us to write off players like Cuthbert and Hunter Dozier, but I'll again defer to the hoards of people who wanted to write off Alex Gordon, Mike Moustakas, Eric Hosmer, Danny Duffy and Wade Davis during their initial struggles with the team.

Baseball requires patience, and seeing that we're less than two years from a championship, the Royals FO have earned this type of patience. This is a stark juxtaposition to the team across the parking lot, whose sights are always set on "next year."

The Royals are descending from two pennants and a World Series Title and the Chiefs are ascending from one playoff win in the last 24 years and no conference championships in what is now nearing a half-century.

I don't blame anyone giving the Royals a well-earned leash.

The Chiefs operate from a level playing field and equal revenue sharing. There is no farm system. Talent acquisition is all through the draft or trade or free agency, which operates with a hard cap.

So no, they don't get the same leash. Because they don't face any of the same challenges the Royals do. The deck is stacked against the Royals by the financial inequality in baseball.

Moore's draft record of late is not stellar. They need to adjust (and think they did well in the past two drafts, especially operating without a first rounder in 2016).

2015 was a disaster. But 2014 and 2013 were also good uses of the draft. Finnegan contributed heavily to one WS run and was the key piece in a deal that helped secure a WS win. Manaea was chased in similarly, as was Cody Reed (who also was a 2013 pick).

Kyle Zimmer has been a huge frustration, but that wasn't a scouting mistake. They were right about how good he was. The arm problems would have been impossible to forecast. That's bad luck.

Bubba Starling and Christian Colon have been talked to death. Colon is the worst bust of the Dayton Moore area (Starling was at least a consensus top 5 pick and was in consideration at #2 and #4).

I've broken it down before. Moore has hit in the first round more than he has missed. The changes to the draft season and the Royals success have damaged the team's ability to restock the system over the past five years, too.

And as for his FA signings, I don't think it's logical or fair to use hindsight to critique deals that were met with approval when completed but look bad now (Gordon).
If you want to critique Moss or Infante, OK.


Yeah, in this environment, think you're better off moving some unimpressive milb depth and adding a bat and an arm.

Jay Bruce is going to be CHEAP, based on what was given up for Martinez. Lance Lynn or Jamie Garcia won't cost a fortune and would reinforce that 5 spot.




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Al is, was, and will always be the biggest idiot this board ever spat out

Anyway, since I'm talking about Jay Bruce and Lance Lynn, figured I'd try to shape it.

Martinez commanded the no 4, 15 prospects from a similar system, plus a popup guy in the Dominican Summer League (lowest MiLb level). For the Royals, an exact copy of that return would be something like Scott Brewer (preseason #4), Miguel Almonte (#15) and Ricky Aracena.

I think KC can get Bruce for less - let's say Scott Blewett and C Meibrys Viloria, who is probably extraneous at this point.

Now, on to Lance Lynn and Jaime Garcia. This is harder, because we haven't had any pitching rentals moved at this point. For Lynn, I'd think it would have a bigger price tag than Bruce.

That talk probably starts with someone like Chase Vallot or Nicky Lopez. And not sure if it's enough, unless the Cardinals scouts see Lopez as a regular. Vallot is more intriguing, as a potential C with plus power and OBP skills (but big swing and moss, and questions about his D).

The Royals do have some young, controllable guys with elite back-end reliever stuff in Lovelady, Almonte, and possibly Staumont.

It's easier to see a fit for Garcia, who would command less. I think that's still a deal worth making, especially if you can pair it with a deal for Pat Neshek. Guessing at a return, I would think each is worth a prospect that projects as a solid reserve at MLB level and a lotto ticket guy.

All three of these deals are within the Royals capability to get, without expending the top players in a so-so system.

Merrrifield
Bruce
Cain
Hosmer
Perez
Moustakas
Bonifacio
Gordon
Escobar

Duffy
Kennedy
Vargas
Hammer
Garcia

Herrera
Minor/Neshek/Soria

That works.


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Is the Tigers haul worth more or less than a comp pick? That is what it comes down to for me. If we get similar value for Moose/Cain/Hos are we better off waiting for comp picks or is #4/#15 out of another team's farm worth more? Asking because I do not have a good grasp of prospects outside top 30-50.

I'd say less, and I'd hesitate to call the Tigers return a "haul."

I'd take comp picks all day long over what the Tigers for, even the lower tier comp picks.


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truth bomb

*** Official 2017 Royals Repository ***
 

I have no interaction with al other than in this thread, really.

I miss him in Royals threads.

What is this dislike of him based on?


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Gotta think GMDM gotta be working the phones...can't stand pat. Hopefully they end this skid tonight

I've been about sell but if JD Martinez isn't getting much I'm thinking their better off getting a hitter, SP and reliever if they can

Duncan, What do you do with Moss. Do the Royals cut him loose and eat next year's salary?

Hang on to him, use him as a bench bat, and give him regular at-bats during the 2018 season in the hopes he plays well enough to flip at the trade deadline for something of value.

If he's as terrible out of the gate in 18 as he has been this year, you cut him loose.


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Greg Holland is the first closer in MLB this season to get to 30 saves.

Sorry, I thought he was talking about Bundy. My bad. Al North was a solid contributor

Good for him. He deserves it

It's DC forum slurping over to the Royals thread.

Now to be fair, the Royals can't really play the 'little sisters of the poor' card over the last 3-4 years or so.

Starting in about 2014 - when the Royals actually got good - Glass made a serious commitment to the squad and the Royals payroll has been roughly lead-average. Hell, this year their payroll is higher than STLs, IIRC.

So your 'challenge' here is a little on the vauge side. I mean ultimately Andrew Friedman didn't win a title, but his payroll constraints were far more onerous than the Royals were. And there have been teams that have one championships because they had cost-controlled players in the early parts of their career. Luhnow and the Astros are in that kind of window.

Which is why the Royals won. Moore has had to make one truly 'payroll oriented' move in the last several years and that's trading Zack Greinke. And even that wasn't truly payroll oriented as much as it was wanting to move an asset before he lost him (nobody expected Greinke to stay in KC as a California kid anyway, money be damned).

NOW he's going to feel a payroll pinch, for sure. And NOW is when you'll see just how good he is. But hell, the Royals were sporting higher payrolls than 'big market' teams like the Orioles, and White Sox at points over the last few years. Payroll hasn't been a problem for them during this window of 'unparalleled success'. When they've needed a piece, they've gotten it.

And it's another reason why Prison Bitch is at times an intolerable pest to this forum.

Thank you for the explanation.

That said, I'd think that if the Chiefs had missed on as many top 10 picks as the Chiefs, the GM would have been fired long ago.

Especially considering Clark's itchy trigger finger.

Garcia also has an injury history and some 'mentally fragile' rumblings in his background that will keep him below the $50 million threshold, IMO. So the Braves are less likely to start at a set 'need a top 75 prospect' in return for a rental with him than the Cardinals would be. My worry with him would be pairing him with Vargas gives you a couple of 'crafty lefty' types. Though Garcia, when he's on, is a throw-back worm-burner wheras Vargas is very much a fly-ball pitcher. So they may be different enough to work together in the rotation.

Vallot doesn't have a home in STL's system. There's obviously the Yadi problem but beyond that, the Cardinals have probably the best overall catching prospect in baseball right now in Carson Kelly. He's not amazing at anything, but he won the minor league gold glove at C in his first full season at the position and has only gotten better since. His hit tool has come far enough that you could probably play him part-time at 3b (his HS position) and not hate what you get for your trouble.

You're not kidding about the state of your farm, man. It's in tatters. It's hard to find many guys to really like down there. For just about every player there's a huge 'BUT' in the scouting report. You look at Khalil Lee and you see a nice power/speed combo then you realize his hit tool is shit (120 Ks in 305 ABs in A ball?!?!?) and he's been caught stealing 15 times to his 16 successful attempts. Josh Staumont still has electric velocity and no goddamn idea where the ball is going.

Nicky Lopez may be the best bet to make the majors in the system and as noted, I just see a utility player there.

I can kinda see the frustration with Moore when I look at that farm. It's really taken a beating in the last few years.

While it's true David Glass opened up his wallet to bring the Royals a title, the Royals overall payroll rank in the MLB was still the second lowest of any team to win a World Series since the strike, and the 2015 Royals are only one of two teams ever to win a World Series while being on the bottom half of MLB payrolls.

That success speaks to the prudent and efficient spending the Royals FO practiced to get the most out of their investments, and speaks to how rare the Royals accomplishment in 2015 truly was.

It is true that Moore hasn't been as efficient with his spending since 2015. The signings of Chris Young, Alex Gordon, and Brandon Moss have hurt, but Moore players like Mike Minor, Scott Alexander, Jorge Bonifacio, Matt Strahm, Whit Merrifield and Cheslor Cuthbert have kept the Royals competitive over the last two summers. Moore hasn't been perfect and has made errors in judgment, but his success should afford him patience over the "FIRE GMDM" I've been starting to see on Facebook.

You just can't compare the NFL draft and how it works to the MLB draft and how it works.

With the NFL draft, your difficulty in identifying talent is so much lower. It is much more based on physical ability and ability to stay healthy. You also have the built in, free college farm system, and ALL the premium talent is moving in through that avenue. And players you're getting in that process are basically finished products who just need a little nudging.

With MLB, you've got the split between high school and college picks to make. The premium talent is usually high school level talent. You've got to project how those Hs guys will mature, while also dealing with the transition from metal bats to wood bats, the mental grind, and, when evaluating pitchers, trying to put a finger on how their body will react to doing the most unnatural thing in sports 10,000+ times or more a year. Oh, and they have to develop their overall skills to the pro game, too.

I'd say drafting MLB talent would compare to the NFL IF every NFL pick was a QB, and you were drafting 1/2 to 2/3 of them out of HS, and the football was different in the pros in size and weight.

And even with all that, Dayton Moore's track record with first round picks isn't THAT bad compared to his peers. It's above average.

2017 - Pratto (too early to tell anything)
2016 - None (forfeited to sign Kennedy)
2015 - Trezelle Jenkins-level disaster
2014 - Finnegan (huge success), Griffin (looks like something between a mid- and back-rotation starter, which is solid for a sandwich pick), Chase Vallot (long way to go, but potential)
2013 - Dozier (lost year to injury but looks like at least an MLB regular), Manaea (cashed in for a WS title)
2012 - Zimmer (disappointment, might still be an elite reliever, but it's all injury related. Similar to a prize WR or RB blowing out a knee and never coming back right)
2011 - Starling (trending to bust status, might still be an acceptable regular if hitting gains of 2017 hold up)
2010 - Colon is a bust
2009 - Aaron Crow (not what they hoped to get, but got a few good relief years and cashed him in for another solid reliever. Not a bust pick, actually)
2008 - Hosmer (huge hit), Mike Montgomery (huge hit, key trade piece)
2007 - Moustakas (huge hit)

Of those picks, six were top 10 picks.

Two were huge successes (and were also the highest two picks, inside the top 3). One was a huge bust. One is a disappointment due to injury. Two are still TBD, with a good chance of getting at least quality MLB regular out of one of them.


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Big part of that beating has come through trades, though missing in the comp balanace lottery 3 years in a row, sacrificing a pick to sign Kennedy, and drafting lower all contribute as well.

I profiled around 40 prospects last week, believe CP linked it in the OP if you want to look at it. Lopez probably has the highest floor. Don't think he's an impact starter, but his D is good enough and his OBP and contact skills are good enough to carve out a MLB regular role.

There are some intriguing guys at the lower levels, and there are some post-hype guys here and there, and a few guys who look like excellent back-end relievers. But yeah, it's not what it was been.


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@jonmorosi: #Indians were only other team seriously involved in J.D. Martinez pursuit this week, source said. Certainly influenced #Tigers return. @MLB

And that's a feather in Moore's cap, to be sure. But it's also one that I think we'll see change in the coming years because Moore rode the 'tank wave' before it was cool.

The Cubs did it when Theo showed up. The Astros did it. The Chisox did it. Philly and Atlanta are trying it to varying degrees of success. They are all doing it on purpose to stock up draft picks and roll out a 'superfarm' that turns them from a 100 loss team to a 100 win team in the span of about 3 years. And in doing that, they're able to roll out a squad with 60-70% cost controlled players. They're trying to avoid the squishy middle - if you can't be good, just be really bad and accumulate bonus pool/prospects.

The Royals did the same thing, they just did it on accident. The sucked so hard for so long that they built 'The Greatest Farm System in History'...remember? And it was on those cost controlled players that they build a champion.

It's nitpicky, but there's truth there. Moore didn't have to sit through the 10 years of shit to build that farm. He came in on the back side of it with the farm already starting to recover. He made some nice picks as well but with draft position made possible by the steaming pile his predecessors gave him. That's not really THAT amazing, if you think about it. And I think we'll see more and more teams doing that going forward.

Solid analysis, while I agree with most of it, I would argue that the farm system was an abject mess when Moore came to KC. Our Latin American scouting was all but barren, the Royals had no overarching plan for their entire system, and the team was fresh off David Glass' infamous "$1,000 bonus" draft, where they Royals drafted solely "grit" and "hard working" players out of college and offered every single one the exact same contract.

Now, the Royals being terrible did give Moore high draft picks coming in (Alex Gordon, Billy Butler, Zack Greinke and Hoch) and some to allow him to start carrying out his systemwide vision (Hos, Moose, Monty, etc). But the Royals system as a whole was among the worst in baseball, forcing Moore to essentially rebuild it from the ground up.

2015 - Trezelle Jenkins-level disaster

What are the Odds that 2 different Franchises in the same City- choose a guy named Trezelle Jenkins with a high draft pick....and they both end up being a colossal bust?

A million to 1 maybe? That would be a great trivia question.

It's also worth pointing out that Moore's "best farm system ever!" group wasn't built solely on the backs of Top 5 picks like Hosmer and Moustakas.

It featured guys drafted in later rounds who blossomed, or guys given big bonuses out of a later round pick to convince them to sign (Wil Myers, John Lamb, Dwyer) as well as pulling depth in from signings in Latin America (many of those lower dollar signs like Perez or Ventura).


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The 2015 Royals 1st rounder was Ashe Russell, not Trezelle Jenkins.

I hope to God that he was just joking. Sadly though, I think he was not.

@Buster_ESPN: Royals are three games out of 1st in the AL Central, and they are asking around about 2 cost-effective starting pitchers and a reliever.

They better ask for a hitter too.

I couldn't figure out what that was about either.

Okay, Duncan - Lynn and Rosenthal for Mondesi?

Takers? I'm not positive I'd do it because I think the reliever market right now is obscene and I might be able to peddle Rosenthal elsewhere for a top 30 prospect on his own.

But if you're the Royals knowing that Rosenthal has another year of team control (and should be a goddamn MFing starting Fing pitcher anyway!!!), might that be enough?

Tehran is signed through 2020. Only trade Mondesi if you can get a pitcher that you can control for more than half a year

Not Duncan, but I'll go ahead and say no.

Honestly who in our farm system could we trade besides Mondesi who has any value?

Which may be why you'd be better served to buy.

Dark days are coming, lads. That system is hellishly bad and the White Sox are terrifying. If they can find 3 decent SPs from that lot of fireballers they have, they're the Astros in 3-4 years.

Oh, and the Indians are still gonna be pretty good for the next 3 years or so (because somehow they tripped over a rock and landed on a 5 WAR player in Jose Ramirez).

So from '18-'20 you'll have the Indians as a nasty piece to get around and from '20-'25 the White Sox are likely to be ascending before yet another rebuild.

Meanwhile, in '17 bats appear to be available for the loose change in your couch and the Indians didn't get out of the gates clean. Salazar has lost his mind and I'm not convinced guys like Chisenhall have true staying power. 88 wins MIGHT do it.

And with the costs of rental sticks evidently being shite anyway, take your picks for your pending FAs and ADD to that team. Make a run in '17 and hope to get lucky, get some picks, hope you can reload and then grab your ankles boyos because the next 3-5 years don't look too great.

Everything changes in 2020, as the current TV deal expires in 2019.

They're not going to get a 10 year, $2 billion dollar deal like the Dodgers, nor a 10 year, $1 billion dollar deal like the Diamondbacks but they'll likely get a 10 year deal worth at least $700 million, if not $800 million.

An extra $50 million in available cash this year would have made the difference from chasing a playoff spot to being able to have signed a few guys that could have actually made it much easier to reach the playoffs and win the division.

When Jason Hammels is 4-14, your team is going to have difficulty staying in the race.

They'd also be able to hang onto one, if not two, of their impending free agents.

Agree with everything here.

The Bluejays in 2015 were like 7 games out of the division lead when they made those big trades for Tulowitzki and Price.

When you've got a large field of teams within 1-5 games of each other for divisions and wildcards, why wouldn't you build up?

Yeah, the Royals really got stuck in no-man's land on that TV contract. If they could've re-negotiated 2 years ago they'd have been in such great shape.

But now networks have seen that those rights fees can be crippling and some normalcy is likely to return to the market. Sure, they'll still get a nice bump, but a team like the Royals (or anyone not in NY, Chicago or LA) can't just go into the market and buy a playoff contender.

If the market really does require $8 million/WAR and a replacement level team is roughly a 48 win ballclub, then you need to spend $300 million/yr on free agents to get to a playoff level.

So obviously that's not feasible for a team that's gonna need to go to the market to fill some some pretty significant holes. I think it's one of those things where the money may help keep them from being a 100 loss squad, but an extra $50 million gets, what, 6 wins on the market (and less every year)? What's that make them after this crop of guys prices/ages out? A 78 win team instead of a 72 win team?

I really think they're better served pushing in this year because the rebuilding process is gonna be a tough one for them.

I see Royals gear out here in LA all the time now. 5 years ago - not so much. I fear we're gonna be back to that by 2020.

Not only "no" but (and this isn't directed at you but more at the general idea, for the sake of effect) "**** no."

I'm willing to move Mondesi, but am not as big a believer in Rosenthal as I know you are. I wouldn't move Mondesi as part of a deal for anything less than a pitcher in the Gerrit Cole tier.

Mondesi is too experienced for prospect lists now, but he's putting up very similar offensive numbers to Amed Rosario at the same age, in the same league, with better defense and base running ability (and no question about his long-term defensive home).

So... basically, I value him as an elite prospect, and I'm not willing to move that for 2 months of a Lynn-caliber guy, plus a year and 2 months of a very mercurial RP.


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I also think you're going to be disappointed if expecting a top 30 prospect back for Rosenthal.

A superior reliever (Robertson) was included as part of a package that didn't net a single top 30 guy just yesterday.

Ryan Madison has been better this year and is pretty affordable next year, and paired with another good relief arm, didn't come close to a top 30 prospect.


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I don't think Robertson has the value Rosenthal does because of the $$ (and he was pretty disappointing in CHW his first two years; though he rebounded nicely this season). And Madson is a guy that is also expensive who people just don't seem to trust. I like the guy but he was ass for large chunks of last season. I do think the Nats got a great deal there, though.

I don't 'expect' it by any stretch, but velocity gets hearts fluttering among executives, especially in the post-season. I don't think it's completely farfetched to approach that level.

Rosenthal's current Arb salary is 6.4 million? Madison is something like $7.5 million next year. Pretty cheap, and he has been better than Rosenthal each of the past two years as well, and he hasn't walked nearly 5 batters/9 over the past four seasons, either.

Rosenthal probably gets a slight raise in arb, may be more expensive even than Madson.

If you don't like Robertson as a comparison, consider that tommy Kahnle was also included in that deal, has like 4 years of control left, and has been dominant the past two years.


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**** no you cocksucking Cardinals fan!

His 18-month insult-a-thon during the election (which I won't detail on a royals thread) made Hootie look calm and reasonable. If u want more, see here:
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...=303623&page=2

We are about to go into a rebuild of our own here. More drastic than yours will be

Tampa, New York and Cleveland all just lost again. If we win still 2 GB. Unreal. We've lost sooo many games recently. Lucky.

Rosenthal has an update on his Facebook page tonight. Said the Mets would rather trade Granderson and give Bruce a qualifying offer so they could get a pick, but they've yet to receive significant interest in either player. Sounds like they're open to trading either and are willing to send cash to cover their contracts to get a better return.

Says they need to do something because they're basically rotating both of those guys with Cespedes and Conforto, and if someone isn't traded it could cause problems. One of the four will have to sit every night.

We have 5 games to decide. Really.


Anything less than 3-2 and you pull the plug, and tell the fans "we stayed as long as we could. But if we can't compete with Central teams we just aren't good"

610 sports voice mail contest. Stupid animal house guy won. I was the first caller, really wanted to see Jim Gaffigan.

Maybe I'll go see my boys in blue play instead.

I really hope you're trolling with the ascending and descending comments.

One team reached the pinnacle of sports recently, World Series in fact twice.

One team hasn't reached, or really come close, to the pinnacle in their sport for nearly 50 years.

There's really only one way for the losing team to go (Chiefs) and one way for a recent winning team to go (Royals). Staying on the pinnacle in any sport is hard. What's really embarrassing is that the one in the sport with the most competitive, draft and financial balance is the one never reaching the dance in 5 decades.

If you're claiming players ascending more for the Chiefs, and that leading to one playoff win in that time, maybe you're over-valuing the Chiefs players.

Dayton Moore does deserve some criticism for the past two years. But that's hardly reason to claim this team sucks and people wanting to hate these players.

Dbacks new acquisition, JD Martinez, leaves game in 4th inning after taking a ball to his hand.

I fully disagree.

Dayton Moore's job may be more difficult but not by much, IMO. He's had a bunch of 1st round flops. Some of his best players have come from trades.

How many Hall of Famers has he drafted?


Carl Peterson drafted not one, not two, but THREE Hall of Famers in Derrick Thomas, Tony Gonzalez and Will Shields, with Jared Allen just waiting around for another 4 years for his induction. Tamba Hali and Jamaal Charles will certainly be in the conversation.

Scott Pioli drafted two possible Hall of Famers in Justin Houston and Eric Berry.

Football is a much different sport than baseball but I'm sorry, I just don't see Dayton Moore as some kind of miracle worker.

I see him more as a guy that got really ****ing lucky that his trades bailed out his shitty drafts.

If he can pull it off a second time, I'll certainly revise my opinion.

I'm beginning to think Cleveland is losing on purpose so we can't sell and get prospects.

I have been saying all season that under .500 or 10 games above doesn't matter that much. 3 games back is still just 3 games back, and really if you had a preference, would you rather be 3 back of the Dodgers or Indians?

Dayton Moore decided to construct a team that went against all Sabermetrics, using defense, speed and a shut down pen to make back-to-back World Series.

Carl Peterson spent year having absolutely no vision for team makeup. Taking explosive offensive teams of the early 2000's and pairing them with some of the worst defenses in Chiefs history. The recent current regime taking a decent defense and placing it with an inept offense handicapped by never addressing the QB position in a serious manner.

Give me Dayton Moore every ****ing day.

Your homerism for the Chiefs is downright baffling. The NFL has had almost every other NFL team in the past 50 years, outside of a few (Lions/Browns), to make the Super Bowl. This including two expansion teams with more playoff success, one with two Super Bowl appearances in the past 15 years (Panthers). The shitty Jaguars have 5 playoff wins in the past 20 years while the Chiefs have one.

You are continuing to over-value what you think the Chiefs have done and what their management has done for literally decades.

Buddy Bell

Trey Hillman

Shitty draft picks.

Face it: The only reason Dayton Moore was allowed to stick around is because David Glass was cheap as shit.

He was lucky as ****. Had the Royals not won the Wild Card Game against Oakland, he'd have been gone.

Building a Super Bowl Champion generally relies on ONE player: The Quarterback.

Without a Hall of Fame QB, you're not winning a Super Bowl. You can't just "trade" a Brian Finnegan for a Tom Brady.

Jesus, Lew.

He's had two first-round flops (Ashe Russell and Chris Colon).

To put Russell in perspective, he was viewed as the top HS RHP in that draft. His yips and falling apart are one of the reasons baseball drafting is so much harder.

Moore hasn't hit on every first round pick. But he has hit more often than he has hasn't, and that's tough to do any time.

Baseball is just much tougher. Completely different beast because there is so much left to develop when the players are drafted.

His team's success is a combination of minor league development (from the draft and Latin America), smart complementary signings, and good trade work. There's no one thing to point to


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I'll take lucky over losing any day.

What's your excuse for the Chiefs?