It's not like he was out there chucking up 50/50 prayer balls every other snap. If he was we'd have seen him throw a lot more picks than he did. He seemed to understand when and where to be aggressive. Kind of reminds me of a less refined Ben Roethlisberger, actually, which makes sense because their career INT% is actually very similar: 2.6 for Roethlisberger and 2.7 for Newton. Stafford is at 2.4, Eli's at 3, Philip Rivers 2.6. Brett Favre is at 3.3 and he was a ****ing dog back in the 90s.

Plus I like the fact that Newton seemed to elevate his receiver's game. Steve Smith hadn't had a thousand yard season in years prior to Cam's arrival. His first year in Carolina propelled Steve back into that near-elite category. Greg Olsen was just doing OK and pretty much immediately he became a premier TE. The Panthers just never really surrounded him with great receiving talent. When Kelvin Benjamin, Ted Ginn and Devin Funchess are the best of the scrubs you've been throwing to, it's gotta be tough to settle in and become a truly great passer.

I would say Cam's arm was a lot stronger than Lamar's. Cam's raw arm strength is fairly similar to Mahomes. Obviously Cam has never had the accuracy or field vision or ability to read defenses like Mahomes. But he had the physical talent. Lamar has pretty questionable arm strength IMHO.

Cam was one of the most physically gifted QBs to ever come out, IMO. His arm was a cannon, you couldn't have asked for better size or a more perfect build, and he was fast as shit.

I've said that I think Lamar Jackson is one of the most natural runners I've ever seen. He's impressive when he tucks it, but his arm is nothing special. I don't think even the staunchest Jackson defender would argue that his game from pocket doesn't leave a lot to be desired.

Freak show athlete in general, no doubt about it!

I agree with you w/ a minor quibble.

I've said for years that accuracy comes down to repeatability and repeatability comes down to biomechanics.

If you look at it from that perspective, then accuracy is a 'physical gift' in the same way short area quickness is. It's either something your body is blessed with or it isn't. You can't really do a hell of a lot to fix it - all you can do is disguise it through play-calling.

Cam simply never had much in the way of accuracy. He had the arm strenght to get the ball to places most guys couldn't and allow his WRs to adjust over the flight path and make plays on the ball. But shorter throws is where you see true precision come to play because there's just not enough flight for WRs to save marginal passes. That's why Brees and Brady have been so damn good as short passers - they are razor precise and so they can implement that short passing attack in a way few others can (especially combined with mental processing).

Cam Newton's sporadic accuracy would've made it virtually impossible for him to be a truly elite short passer. He simply couldn't run something like a WCO. And because of that, he's easier to adjust to and eventually figure out.

While he had a great deal many 'splash' gifts; the kinds of things that show out loudly in a combine, for example - he lacked the biomechanics for the repeatable deliveries that could've made him an accurate passer and thus a more difficult QB to adjust to.

I do have a habit of not including accuracy under the umbrella of physical gifts, but perhaps you're right and I should start. I can't think of many QBs with accuracy concerns who turned pro and improved greatly in that aspect. Maybe Matt Stafford and Michael Vick?

And I guess you'd have to make the distinction between those who's accuracy issues are clearly a result of poor mechanics (like a Stafford) and a guy who just can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn (like a Josh Allen). I'm not sure where Cam falls on that spectrum. I've never been a fan of his throwing motion, that's for sure.

Vick never got more accurate - he's the kind of example I'm talking about where you just scheme around it. He never was worth a damn throwing underneath.

Reid got especially good at upping the reward on his throws without signficiantly upping the risk, thus making the expected ROI higher for him. He's a letter-perfect example of the kind of guy who simply never had the physical tools to be an accurate passer but who could be worked around.

Stafford is, IMO, more accurate than he gets credit for. When he'll just calm the !@#$ down and throw the ball, he generally throws it where he wants to. He's a guy who lets his brain sabotage him because he's just so damn aggressive even when discretion would've been the better part of valor. Some of his improvements came from simply knowing where to go with the ball and being more willing to take what he had instead of force passes that he didn't.

Ultimately that's why I wonder exactly what kind of ceiling Jackson has left. He MAKES smart decisions with the ball. His ego doesn't have him out there writing checks his arm can't cash so he can complete a nice percentage of balls by simply making the right throw.

So in a lot of ways I'd rather have a guy like Stafford who's processing CAN improve to a point that he's a genuinely dangerous passer. Jackson, OTOH, just can't make decisions much better than he's presently making them. He goes where he should with the ball. But when he's asked to make difficult throws in tough spots, he just doesn't have the tools to make 'em.

This is an interesting discussion (with a few glaring exceptions) ...

Generally, I use my eyes rather than stats when evaluating a QB. That's why I haven't been as impressed with Deshaun Wishkins as most people are. People talk about Mahomes' "surrounding cast" all the time, but where would Wishkins be without Hopkins, I ask you? I'm not a stats guy, but my guess is that Hopkins is personally responsible for 40% of Wishkins' QBR.

Besides being very selective in my choice of peyote button dealers, if I've learned one thing in my life it's looking for the Larry Bird Clutch Gene in a QB. If your guy has that, you're in better shape.

With that in mind, there's really only one current QB I'd take if I couldn't have Mahomes and it's Russell Wilson. You can keep your Cams and your Jacksons and your Vicks ... give me the guy who can get you the 2-minute drive TD when you absolutely need it.

We Chiefs fans are very fortunate in that respect.

FAX

Yep, it's Wilson and Mahomes. Rest of the league is overpaying for their QB's when they give them top dollar. We're gonna see it with the likes of Prescott, Watson, Jackson, and others. We've already seen it with Stafford, Cousins, Carr, Jimmy G, etc.

The other legitimately great QB's are all old. That includes Rodgers, who has really showed signs of aging the last couple years. The others are flat-out ancient (Brady/Brees).

Damn straight! **** Skip Bayless.

Lamar has peaked.

I always kind of wondered early in the season when Jackson was throwing those flip passes 50 yards downfield on a dime - is this really repeatable?

I had the same concerns over Mahomes flip passes - which were usually because he didn't have time/space to make his full delivery. And unlike last season, this season a lot of those missed the mark. But at the same time I also felt 100% confidence Mahomes would work to fix his delivery/footwork/movement in the pocket - to be more sound whenever he could.

I think Lamar will also work his ass off to fix his issues and I'm not going to sweat a pro-bowl skills challenge when the dude is probably still reeling at how his season ended and would rather be pretty much anywhere else (but you can't turn down your first pro-bowl).

But yeah the big question is how much of his accuracy problem is fixable. I guess we'll find out. One thing I know is the QBs I always feared were the ones like Manning, Elway, and now Mahomes - who could lead a huge comeback. Jackson has yet to prove he can be in that category.

What's the problem here? Other teams can and do have good quarterbacks.

Sure, but that's not the context of this thread. Do your research and you'll be able to answer your own question.

I don’t think Harbaugh was joking LMAO

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-pro-bo...kills-Showdown


Did anyone else laugh at this?

Samual L. Jackson can't throw very well.

Nice, they are going to train together since they both know they are not good enough to beat Mahomes.

dude's just asking for it

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/Lj_era8?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Lj_era8</a> scrambling on the beach �� <a href="https://t.co/bmLCgtMsCo">pic.twitter.com/bmLCgtMsCo</a></p>&mdash; B/R Gridiron (@brgridiron) <a href="https://twitter.com/brgridiron/status/1272268095894310912?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 14, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Certainly has a Robert Edwards feel to it. Fortunately, he appears to be ok.

Just go over to the Ravens forum. Their QB just won MVP, yet a lot of them still salivate over Mahomes. They know who the true king is.

Ravens fans, in my experience, have actually been quite realistic about the Lamar vs Mahomes debate. After the Super Bowl I saw two Ravens' forums where the majority conceded that they wouldn’t have beaten the Chiefs in the playoffs (but they wished they could have lost to us instead of the Titans, funnily enough).

I don’t know if completely unexpectedly winning a Super Bowl knocks the edge off some fanbases, but even my ****posts on the Ravens subreddit get upvotes, and that’s saying something.

Ravens have always had a really good culture and team. A team I’ve always respected

Amen.

https://forum.russellstreetreport.co...arting-AFC-QBs

Just look at that thread. Aside from "Jim" (who does some hilarious mental gymnastics) they all seem to agree that Mahomes is the guy to beat. Hell, some of them don't even think Lamar is #2. Always fascinating to look at other fan boards.

Nah, **** their defence. They have repeatedly gone out of their way to injure our QB. That's their main strategy. **** those ****z.

I'm impressed with that forum. It honestly reminded me of watching our forum react when someone would say Alex was a top 5 QB. That type of cynicism would have never flown in a lot of other Chiefs fan sites out there.


I am not fond of Judon. Seemed to hit Mahomes late every chance he got.

This has been a fascinating read. Here's my favorite post so far

My favorite comment so farROFL

I badly wanted the Chiefs to grab Eric DeCosta before they hired Pioli. At that time, DeCosta was what Veach is now...a young up and comer with a keen eye for player eval. However, the Ravens wisely had DeCosta lined up as Ozzie's successor. Im not sure KC could've pryed him away.

There is a married DB on that team. That admitted to having adulterous sex. While his brother was involved with her at the same time. How could it have happened in other than a missionary position. You filthy moralless pigs

Eiffel Tower, bro.

https://melissadesa.files.wordpress....fel-tower1.jpg

Wow. That Jim dude is a ****ing idiot.

Lamar Jackson is not "90% of the passer Mahomes is" lol and that Hollywood>Tyreek take is somehow even worse.

Lol, someone forgot to take their meds today.

Quicker than Tyreek? Really? The guy wants to go there? The only things quicker than Tyreek are at the quantum physics level.

Apparently Black Bob became a Ravens fan. He was pulling that "maybe not faster but quicker" bullshit when comparing Jamaal Charles and Dexter McCluster

This dude shuts Jim down:

“So you say Mahomes does 1 and 2 (move the ball and score points) so effortlessly, seemingly at will... but as far as 3 (win games) goes, he’s won both games against Lamar and won a Super Bowl ring.

We can make up arbitrary percentages all we want but you yourself list three things a QB needs to be able to do and Mahomes has arguably been better at all three.

I obviously love Lamar. But Mahomes is in a tier of his own. Even based on the operational definition that you offered yourself.“

Raven's fans sound like bitter bitches.

Why haven’t we heard about how Jackson will be exposed when the league has tape on him? Or about how the Ravens will suck when they have to pay him?

If he’s as close to Mahomes as they believe, then shouldn’t these same arguments be true for Jackson?

Okay. I tried a cialis and admitt my opinion has changed somewhat. Still concerned about sweaty hands with the tower.

I'm on page 5 and reading that one dude's dissertation why Lamar is actually better than Mahomes is like a carbon copy of the argument Portland fans used to make why Clyde Drexler is ~~actually better~~ than Michael Jordan.

lmao

Let's see:

Tyreek Hill = 2x All Pro in two different positions. Arguably the most explosive player of his generation. Fastest player and most unguardable player in perhaps the history of the league.

Hollywood Brown = Antonio Brown's cousin

If anyone is registered there they should post the video of lamar passing at the pro bowl competition.

It's very simple. Give everyone truth serum and ask if they would trade Lamar for Mahomes straight up. On the Ravens side, I think a pretty good chunk of their front office and fanbase would gladly do that trade. On the Chiefs side? Not a chance in hell.

Yeah I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single Chiefs fan that would make that trade.

I wonder if Ravens fans have a distorted view of the QB position.

They’ve seen their team win two Super Bowls with Dilfer and Flacco, while Colts fans only saw Manning win 1.

Maybe they don’t see the obvious difference in Mahomes vs everyone else, because they’ve been the outlier in being successful despite never having a truly elite passing QB.

I had never considered this but you bring up an interesting point.

It is funny, that guys whole defense on the matter is stats from last year. Total averaged stats. Mahomes, was injured a few games. He was on pace for 6k yards before it.
Probably a blessing in disguise because wins and Superbowl is more important than 6k.

Well to be fair this was brought up because Ravens fans are some of the least homer-fans out there in terms of having a grip on where your players actually stand.

I mean there is only one guy saying Lamar is better than Mahomes and he's getting shouted down by everyone else.

https://youtu.be/hX6uaNbU0aU

Can't get the embedded link on the phone. Enjoy nevertheless.

At 0:56, you can see a guy huddled down by some equipment taking shelter because no one can predict where the balls are going. And he still almost got hit.

Or it could be they are just idiots.

LMAO

Funny every time.

Can't wait to beat these punks again.

In fairness, Flacco's SB run was incredible. Played like an elite QB through those playoffs. But I get your point.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/CFVAVSlltM">pic.twitter.com/CFVAVSlltM</a></p>&mdash; Stacy (@2asgard) <a href="https://twitter.com/2asgard/status/1290011718609850369?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 2, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Jackson is a RB who can throw.

He just can't throw well enough to be a pocket passing QB, and in this league you have to have that ability.

I'm willing to bet that Jackson's "running game" isn't going to be nearly as elite as it was last yr. Tennessee showed the world what happens when you make Lamar stay in the pocket and actually have to play the position.

He's gonna flame out in a couple/few yrs unless he gets better at throwing the ball.

Lamar Tebow


Tim Jackson



Lamar is Tim Tebow incarnation


Somewhat can throw ball better than TT but he is what the Broncos were hoping Tim Tebow would be.

For comparison’s sake, you can watch the 2019 version (CP won’t let me post link to the video)

Point totals were:
Luck - 5
Trubisky - 11
Watson - 15
Wilson - 19

For the non-QBs, Adam Thielen got 10 points, and Von Miller got 2. So basically, Lamar is equal to Von Miller in this particular skill challenge.

Can't even count how many people on Twitter talk about mahomes weapons. As if the ravens don't have the #1 running game and an outstanding defense. We all know lamar is a product of that system.

More importantly nobody seems to remember that mahomes was a winner without tyreek and Sammy, fisher, or half of his OL. With an injured RB and a washed out shady as his main guy. Trying to lead a bottom 5 defense still trying to find its way. Oh, and he did this all on one ankle. There needs to be a bot that just posts this every damn time somebody talks about this nonsense.

Thanks for this.

Booger McFarland broke down the event quite nicely!

I like Lamar I really do. Liked him in college. Like watching him now. He’s fun makes the game fun. That said he’s not even in the same universe as mahomes. It’s unfair to compare him to what looks like a once in a generation player in mahomes. That same d it’s gonna be tougher for Lamar this year. More teams will play him like Tennessee did. It’s f you watch anything from last year teams playing Baltimore would heavy cover the outside as the f The Wr were capable of anything. It’s like every coach playing them was sure that was the game Lamar was going to become a prototypical nfl QB. Tennessee plugged the middle dedicated heavy coverage to the tight ends and loaded up against the run. Baltimore is going to see a lot of that early. If Lamar wants to continue to progress he’s gonna have to out Alex smith his own brain. Learn to read coverage quicker and throw more outside. Should be fun to watch

embed


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hX6uaNbU0aU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yeah, defenses last year were built to stop the pass. Mahomes broke the league 2 years ago. How many years have defenses been planning around the spread with fast defenders with range. So guys like Goff and Rodgers regressed while running backs like Derrick Henry soared.

Defenses won't let teams keep running down their throats. Of course the league wants to stop mahomes but id bet their top offseason priority is stopping run offenses like SF and Baltimore. Good for mahomes, bad for lamar.

Lamar Jackson 0-3 against Mahomes.

0-5 in starts where the Ravens go down 10+

1 win where Lamar has 30+ pass attempts.

Great athlete, great runner, TRASH quarterback when it matters.

I will completely revise my previous takes in the thread.

The Chiefs rolled out the Titans formula on defense and Lamar was absolutely toasted JUST like he was last season. Until Lamar figures out how to win/come back down 2 possessions, they have a very real ceiling.

The Ravens also completely undervalued receivers in the Lamar era -- which doesn't matter in their offense... until they do. You're not piecing together a comeback with tight ends and the WR crew that they have. Even in their scoring drives today, you can't require a 7 minute drive to score when down by multiple scores in the 2nd half.

Eh they took one in the 1st last year.

This remains the case. If you force him into a situation where he actually has to throw accurately down the field he can’t do it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">No, let them keeping ranking him #4 in the league.....we love it <a href="https://t.co/Q9am7rt4mS">https://t.co/Q9am7rt4mS</a></p>&mdash; Brittany Matthews (@brittanylynne8) <a href="https://twitter.com/brittanylynne8/status/1310777098009751552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 29, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

*Q’ing myself in multiple threads because I’m drunk and this needs to be shared. Patrick is hungry!

I see that, but I don't know how they didn't look at their crew last year and add a WR in the offseason. Emmanuel Sanders completely transformed the Niners O last year and a player like that adds a dimension to the Ravens offense when playing behind that they just do not have right now. The Chiefs looked more than happy to let them take 13 minutes off the clock in their scoring drives in the 2nd half.

This is really who Jackson is. He consistently can’t pass the ball effectively against quality opponents, bbbuuuutttttt...

The Ravens have to pay him, right? You can’t trade an MVP or let him walk in FA?

They’re going to regret paying him.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Lamar Jackson admits the Chiefs are the Ravens &quot;kryptonite.&quot; Said they pretty much had same defensive game plan as the Titans did in the playoff game.</p>&mdash; Jeff Zrebiec (@jeffzrebiec) <a href="https://twitter.com/jeffzrebiec/status/1310787743203635200?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 29, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lamar even admits it. The Chiefs just rolled out the Titans plan on D and dared the Ravens to beat it. It reminds me of how the teams copied the Patriots 2019 AFCCG against us last season and were rolling us... until Pennel (and the team gelled to Spags scheme) I just don't think they added a Pennel like difference maker to their offense that can make an impact like that.

Lamar Jackson isn't a pimple on Patrick Mahomes ass.

Jackson's game consists almost entirely of hype

He will be a backup by the 2026 NFL Season - Week 1, if not sooner

you can't teach mental....

For the 9/28/2020 game...

ESPN QBR - Mahomes 97.7/100 and Lamar 40.4/100

Which is why I would’ve punted on 4th down rather than hand it off to sausage.
Make the Ravens drive the distance rather than give Lamar the short field would’ve been the better call. The Ravens simply do not have the quick strike offense to get into a shootout.

Going for it was the right call, but giving it to Sherman was too clever by half.

(You're right about the Ravens offense though)

He will get paid by them he is what 18 and 1 against everyone else?