Lmao you're trying so hard to convince yourself of this.
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I’m not the biggest fan of this draft either but after years of watching it I realized I don’t have a damn clue and I’ll just sit back and see how it goes

I think it's pretty damn early to be confident in any position about the results of the 2018 draft. It's a week into camp.....

With the exception of the "bunch of small school prospects" thing, this was my initial reaction to Veach's first draft as well. All the talk about how he was going to be aggressive was definitely true, but I can't help in thinking he got tunnel vision on one or two prospects he believed in and just gunned for them, letting the rest of the draft fall where it may.

That's fine if he believes in Breeland Speaks. I would still question using our original 2nd on him like I did Kpassagnon because I think Speaks has the same issues working against him, but I'm certainly willing to entertain that I could be guilty of closed-minded thinking. But it wasn't just that either--- Veach TRADED UP for Speaks. It's like he had his board, and he had one primary objective: Get Speaks and **** everything else. He did that a couple times in this draft, even in the 6th round when he went up for McKenzie (although it becomes more advantageous to trust your scouting gut in the later rounds than it is to leave yourself with lots of options in how your board is set up).

I don't agree with something that somebody said that he didn't have much to work with this year. He had 8 picks. He SPENT two of them to trade up, and in each instance he wasn't trading into a round, he was just leaping ahead a few selections so he could be certain one of his scouting prizes was going to be there.

He definitely needs to learn that sometimes you just have to take a ****ing chill pill and trust that your draft board is tiered correctly.

I was wrong about the small school prospect thing, probably because in my head they're a bunch of small name guys, regardless of where they attended.

I'm curious which guys drafted after pick 46 you consider "blue chippers who will for sure be good".

Please make sure they're defensive guys in positions of need.

Personally, I think it’s stupid as **** to even try to evaluate a draft before we’ve watched them play a down. Too many guys bust that we’re supposed to be sure things, and too many guys break out that were taken on day three.

McKenzie is a great example of what i mean when i say scouting arrogance. I see a draft chalked full of players that weren't particularly productive and didn't do a whole lot on the college level, but instead are guys that can maybe be a "diamond in the rough" if they pan out.

This draft, for whatever reason, reminded me of the Chargers drafts under A.J Smith, in which AJ thought he was smarter than everyone else.

Maybe he IS smarter than everyone else, we'll see. But on paper, this draft is a bunch of hope and prayers.

Why 46? He couldn't move up?

And why do they have to be defensive players in a position of need?

I don't agree with drafting for need. IF Veach is a draft for need kinda guy, we're in trouble.

Most of the best players on this team weren't drafted as immediate needs. BPA.

No one has evaluated them yet in the NFL. That's clearly impossible for us to do. Hence, "On paper".

I mean, isn't that basically every draft though?

I'd rather a guy go get guys he wanted. It may have not been the guys I wanted him to go get, but I'd much rather see that than sit around and let his board get picked apart and take guys not rated as high.

Some much more than others.

Anyway, my argument here isn't to rip on Veach.

Not at all. The jury is still out on him.

My point is to demonstrate how hyper critical CP became regarding Dorsey after his firing, and how hypocritical we are for lavishing Veach with praise.

Trying to credit Veach for Mahomes is a perfect example of that.

Dorsey drafts Mahomes:

"Yay Dorsey. Best GM in our lifetime. Thanks for our very 1st 1st round QB, "Balla ass GM"

Dorsey gets fired:

Dorsey sucked. Mahomes was all Veach anyway

:rolleyes:

You cannot really evaluate a draft before the players have had a chance to play.

Dorsey was for sure outstanding.

I am a fan of Veach as well and he will have a chance to prove that he can draft. You need to give him 2 or 3 drafts before you can judge him.

Exactly. So why should I or anyone else care what it looks like on paper?

On paper, Tyreek Hill, off the field issues or not, was never going to become an elite WR. There are plenty of examples of things like that going both ways, whether the players busts or exceeds his ‘on paper’ expectations.

This only checks out if you know more about players than Veach does and until we see these guys play one minute of football that jury is still out.

If he took a tight end or something people would roast him. Chiefs had the #5 offense and was #28 in run defense. What if BPA is a receiver? I disagree with your philosophy. I disagree with your opinion that you know if any of these guys will be good.

You know who was a blue chip player? Aaron Curry. You gotta let these guys play before you bury the GM.

Personally I don't really like the O'Daniel and Watts picks but I gotta see them play first.

That's what makes it fun, I loved the O'Daniel pick.

I just wanted a corner and felt like what we got was another safety / linebacker hybrid for the nickel defense.

Then I found out how much they plan on playing in the nickel so maybe it makes sense.

Yeah, in today's NFL you've gotta have a guy that can cover the middle of the field and play the run. Hopefully this guy can.

I am not burying the GM. My intention isn't to rip Veach. But yes, i don't like his draft so far.

And if he had picked a TE, i woulda been fine with it if he were the BPA. Fact is, the Chiefs DO need another TE. That was on my wish list. Reaching for need is how you end up with a bad team, because if that player doesn't pan out, well, you still have a freakin' hole there.

And NFL rosters need depth. So you can never go wrong with BPA. If the BPA was a receiver, and we had a receiver go down mid season or in camp, all of a sudden that pick looks damn good. Or maybe a fat contract is due, but since you went BPA and have depth at the position, you aren't forced to get bent over by a single player.

I'm not burying these players. I've stated over and over again that it's impossible for us to know how they'll turn out. But with what information i DO have, they're all project type prospects, small names regardless of where they attended. No one stands out in this draft class imo. Maybe Tremon Smith. And everyone loves that guy because of his size and speed. Mostly his speed.

Dorsey hit on some diamonds in the rough players but took projects at times that didn't make sense as well. His cap management was pitiful.

I mean I think most of my anger came from how close we got to drafting CB Josh Jackson out of Iowa because he is so much like Peters in my opinion. But hey maybe Veach had the same issues with his lack of physicality.

No GM is perfect. There's always going to be some of that. You just don't want your whole draft class being that, which is basically what our '18 draft class is.

As Rain Man pointed out, our drafts were HIGHLY successful. Best in the league according to his metrics.

And the cap management thing? Again, what has Veach done that Dorsey wouldn't have?

Hali, DJ and Alex were always going to be cap casualties.

We rip Dorsey for inflated contracts, yet not one person in this conversation today has said shit about the Watkins deal.

Again, this is because Dorsey is no longer one of ours, therefore bad in hindsight. Veach IS one of ours, therefore wait and see and all things good.

After seeing this team blow playoff games on a few occasions and lack that killer instinct, I love to hear Veach talk about creating a physical, tough team. That’s just my view though.

Dorsey talked it too. Every coach talks it. Means nothing. They've been trying to be the Steelers/Ravens since Chunt took over.

Veach was hired because of Mahomes deal with it

:rolleyes:

Cool. Making up your own narratives.

Find me a quote from Dorsey saying that.

Not going to waste my time digging through 5 years of posts right now.

You think teams seek soft players or something?

"i want to build a team that's mentally weak and melts down in the playoffs"

That shit Veach is talking is pure coach speak. What exactly is it that you expect him to say, when asked what he looks for in his defense?

Why was he hired then and kept?

tell me the profound explanation to go out of the comfort zone and complacency that has been embedded for over 30 years in the Chiefs franchise.

It’s one thing to talk it and another to actually do something about it.

Veach added physicality at both ILB spots within 8 months that Dorsey never did with Ragland and Hitchens.

Veach is out of the comfort zone?

LMAO he was hired from within because he was familiar. LMAO

I don't know all the reasons why he was hired, but i'm pretty sure it wasn't just because he liked Mahomes. As did every other scout, coach and GM on the Chiefs at the time.

The Chiefs defense was elite or borderline elite for most of Dorsey's tenure and was at one point considered arguably the best defense in football. Please.

All the great defenses slow down at one point ( see the Steelers, Ravens, Seahawks) but the goal is to bring it back to that elite level.

How much of that elite talent did he inherit? Almost all of it.

You don't know, groovy

And how much did Veach inherit?

You don't either, super groovy. But you're the one making assertions about why Veach was hired, not me.

Defensively? Not much, apparently.

Dorsey had a pre-broken DJ, so the need wasn't absolutely pressing, and it's not as if he were ignoring the defense.

Chris Jones. Justin Houston. Eric Berry. Kpass. Allen Baily.

#Not much.

Veach in his 2nd season mind you, is currently replacing our two ILB's and two outside corners.

That's not exactly unheard of roster turnover in two season in the NFL.

Another Dorsey mistake there, though. DJ was old for much of his time in KC while Dorsey was around and he also tore 2 Achilles. Dorsey should have been aggressively looking to replace him, at least by 2016.

KPass hasn’t proven anything and Allen Bailey is maybe, MAYBE slightly above average. Behind the guys you named, the depth was absolute dog shit.

Veach is smart enough to know that a great CB gets burned all day if you don't have a pass rush

He probably would've been. It's hard to know. This is that unrealistic explanation in which he's suppose to have every position loaded all the time.

Meanwhile...how's that corner position looking for Veach? Crickets. ILB? If Ragland can't go, that's a pretty ugly group.

Agreed. Dorsey sucked the big one there. Of course I lay some of that at the feet of Reid and Sutton. Were they screaming to new blood at that position? Sutton was asking for DL's that can cover 50 yards downfield, I'm afraid.

Sure, but I think it's fair to say Dorsey was always thinking about life after DJ, and he seemed to want to do it over the years where he would first find a stud that could play next to DJ and eventually take over when the time came.

That just flat out never happened. ILB was a plagued position for us. Dorsey had Derrick Johnson, but that was it, and whenever he was injured (or in the case of last year, old) then we were screwed. Nothing he threw at the position was good. Nico Johnson never worked. Ramik Wilson never worked. Same goes for all the high-upside low-risk signings of James Michael-Johnson, Justin March, and even Josh Mauga (who we ended up EXTENDING). Akeem Jordan wasn't used much, Joe Mays was a free agent bust that we ended up eating dead money over. DJ Alexander and subsequently Kevin Pierre-Louis just weren't starting material, either.

When Veach started the job, the ILB position was a huge weakness. In just over a calendar year and with two transactions, that position is now a strength of the team, and it's deeper than I think I've ever seen it ever since we switched to the 3-4.

And? Yet people including you, are pretty excited about what he may bring. And what happened to not judging a draft class too early? Is Kpass not depth all of a sudden?

Absolutely.

But man, o' man, people around here saw a lot of potential in those guys when they were on the roster. Well, not Mauga but i clearly remember all the Wilson, JMJ, KPL, DJL Alexander and March hype trains.

No different than the Eligwe hype now. And our ILB group is not something i would call strong right now. Ragland had knee issues, and it's haunting us right now. Hitchens should be good, but that's about all we have.

Hitchens is the only real commodity we have there. Ragland was ok last season and his knee problems are rearing its ugly head.

You can’t say someone is inheriting a great talent when said player hasn’t even played yet and proven themselves.

So far? Amerson looks better than I thought he would, Tremon Smith looks better than I thought he would, and Kendall Fuller looks like a pro-bowler.

If we don't get a pass rush, CB isn't going to matter a whole lot.

Well yeah but that's neither here nor there.

So now you don't consider him a talent?

And i like how we chose to remove all the offensive talent that Dorsey left for Veach as if that somehow shouldn't count.

"Shhh...lets just focus on the weakest part of the team right now that was going to need rebuilding whether Dorsey was here or not".

let me rephrase that....if Bob Sutton doesn't let our defense pressure the QB then the QB is going to **** our CBs all game long.

This 3 man rush shit don't cut it.

Where'd you see that at?

As far as I am aware, they haven't played a down yet this season and we're already giving pro bowl nods?

Ragland has missed like 3 days of camp. Reid has said he could play if they needed him for a regular season game, they're just not because why bother with a swollen knee when it's training camp?

He has no other significant injury history to speak of. Just a freak ACL tear. That goes for him and like half the ****ing league.

At this point, we're not being haunted by shit. He's fine.

He should have made the pro bowl last year and everything I've seen so far is Fuller is sticking to these fast as hell receivers like glue.

That's an issue inherent in Sutton's defense. Which is why it's a shame Peters didn't work out.

You need corners who can play man, and play the ball when it's in the air. Otherwise you're going to get killed on the blitz

Surely you remember what happened to every corner opposite Peters, right? It was downright embarrassing.

The lack of cover corners is what forced the 3-man rush. They were getting murdered on the back end so they added more bodies, at the sacrifice of a pass rush.

I don't know about everything. I remember watching Fuller trip over his own feet on a downfield pass to (Watkins?).

Didn't he have some injury issues in college? And a knee swelling while sitting on his ass during a plane ride? That's cause for concern for sure.

IDC what Reid says. He was pretty confident about Houston too, and it took him more than half a season to return. Remember that?

I don't care what QB it is or what CB it is...if a QB has all day to sit back and wait, the WR's will come open. Pass rush is where it all starts. A good pass rush makes average CB's better. A suck pass rush makes great CB's look like shit.

People who think Dorsey was/is bad. Just watch Cleveland. I am telling you.

But are you gonna say he inherited a great team? Lol

Veach looks like a good one too but still has a lot to prove.

And a corner who gets beat like a drum before the pass rush can get there makes the pass rush look like shit. The end result is the same.

You need both. If you're going to play the scheme Sutton wants, you have to have both. Otherwise one aspect of your D gets sacrificed.

DOOMED

Thinking about going to camp for a day or two next week. Anything anyone can tell me about the visit? How kid friendly is the experience for a couple of girls? Is there any type of post practice social activity? Good bars or restaurants etc?

Any replies are appreciated

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When Veach brought in Buttkicker I stopped questioning. That guy is freakin NAILS.

Are you talking about Reid's decision to keep playing Houston the rest of 2015 and into the playoffs when he first sustained the injury? The decision to have surgery didn't occur until a couple months into the 2016 offseason, and at that point, there wasn't a single person (including Reid) who was saying, "Recovery from this surgery is a breeze. Houston won't miss any time at all!"

And if it's the 2015 thing you're talking about, I'd say these are pretty different situations. Houston's was an error by team doctors who said he didn't need surgery; Ragland's is simply something that occasionally happens to guys with ligament damage. It's pretty common for guys who have undergone ligament damage to have swelling from flights.

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2018/...t-does-it-mean

Is there a 100% chance this Ragland thing won't be a big deal? No, of course not. But given the guy started 10 games last year after enduring the tear the year before, and given he flew MANY times during the course of that season and still did well, would you really say we're being "haunted" by this injury?

Let's see where he's at in Preseason Week 3. If he's being held out of that game, THEN we have a problem.

This entire conversation has been about the defense. The whole time. Even when I said Dorsey inherited a lot of talent.

And no, I’m not going to consider KPass as a greatly inherited talent until he proves it. Same goes for any other rookie.

It's about the defense because it's a convenient argument that you narrowed in on.

The real conversation is about whether or not Dorsey was a good GM.

Focusing on the unit that was destined for a rebuild regardless of who the GM was is convenient for you, but not encompassing of the job he did.

Honestly if the argument is whether or not Dorsey drafted well I don't know who would argue with that. It was the other stuff. How he treated his co-workers, how he signed his players, his salary cap. That's why he's gone.

Not many of the picks this year are projects. If anything it’s the opposite. High floor type guys

Sutton doesn't even know what scheme Sutton wants

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Are you trying to make 'Dorseysexual' a thing?

When thats our biggest problem, we're in a good spot :D

The amount of positive energy surrounding this team right now is truly something to behold, its oozing out of every twitter post up there

St Pat throws the most accurate duck ever

Kpass is dropping back into coverage for ints

Amerson is looking legit

Its hard to imagine camp looking any better, the renewed energy is palpable

Detoxing vs the world has hopefully run its course

Go get some decaff and take a deep breath, detox

LMAO

Tom Peliserro will be at camp tomorrow and will speak with Mahomes

What? How is a conversation about what Dorsey drafted only about the defense?

I agree with most of what detox is saying. I couldn't believe the about-face people made on Dorsey.

I will fully admit I didn't really grasp some of the cap trouble he created until after people broke it down post firing. But the narratives some have made about how guys Dorsey drafted were actually Veach finds or some other scouts find is crazy to me.

Guy drafted really well. We really aren't going to give him credit for Peters? 6 months ago we all would be listing him as an elite corner, no? His issues were something we could live with until the trade as far as I could see on this board.

I'm not down on this draft so I don't really agree with that however I fully side with the the idea of what happened here after Dorsey got fired.

I like what Veach has done. He has a direction and right now the team feels to have legitimate momentum even beyond Mahomes. Doesn't mean Dorsey was awful.

And by the way, most of the rest of the NFL thought the two contacts Veach gave out we're gross. I don't necessarily agree but Dorsey would have been skewered for those numbers. This whole post wasn't directed at you pugs fyi.